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Hi, sorry my english

I have a PC connected to a CRT TV via VGA>RGB Scart

One of the main problems I have with real master system, consoles is that....

If I use PAL, I get too much black borders, but correct speed in a lot of pal games

If I use NTSC this PAL games run too fast..but almost not black borders

Some time ago, i found a way to have the best of both worlds, i manage to do a modeline with a timming of 53.3khz *NTSC*

Modeline "1792x224_60 15.3KHz 53.3Hz" 36.960 1792 1876 2054 2416 224 247 250 287 -hsync -vsync

**I use 1792px, but anyone can use whatever want

This give only 7% faster gameplay than real 50hz PAL (much best than the 17% faster of play in 60hz) and NTSC fullscreen

For first time IN YEARS im soo happy to play a master system in a CRT :) finally my dream come true

I compile a mess with overclock for master system, the PAL games dont give problems in NTSC (Bram Stoker Dracula for example)

http://akihabara-online.com/Main/Emula/mess_overclock_di.zip

In mess.ini just change speed from 1.00 to 0.888 if you use 53.3hz

If someone have a PC connected to a CRT using RGB, will be interesting for me, to know if is possible to have such a lot NTSC timming

At least in my two 14" Trinitron TV without problem

By the way, i upload some photos of my PC for emulation, is a small thin client, Futro S500, and the frontend is Mala. The theme is personal, i made myself

Greetings

sonic.jpg (38.7 KB)

010.jpg (32 KB)

futro

013.jpg (72.15 KB)

mala

031.jpg (72.13 KB)

MS mala

theelf wrote

If I use PAL, I get too much black borders, but correct speed in a lot of pal games

If I use NTSC this PAL games run too fast..but almost not black borders

Most SMS games were just designed to run at NTSC speed, so playing them at any lower speeds than that is not the intended way to go...

Most SMS games I have tried run poorly in 60Hz, lot of slowdown and choppiness.

This resolution you've created here may not work so well on all devices, you can probably get straight 50Hz work on some other monitor without problem.

ICEknight wrote

theelf wrote

If I use PAL, I get too much black borders, but correct speed in a lot of pal games

If I use NTSC this PAL games run too fast..but almost not black borders
Most SMS games were just designed to run at NTSC speed, so playing them at any lower speeds than that is not the intended way to go...

Well, the idea is if a game run well at 60hz..... you play at 60hz. If something work well, dont touch!

This is only for games that not run well at 60hz, but you don' t wanna play in "widescreen" PAL 50hz

TmEE wrote

Most SMS games I have tried run poorly in 60Hz, lot of slowdown and choppiness.

This resolution you've created here may not work so well on all devices, you can probably get straight 50Hz work on some other monitor without problem.

50hz is just PAL, is impossible to have NTSC in 50hz on a regular CRT TV

At 50hz, the can can in lemmings sound great, but the widescreen PAL is too much for me... in 60hz, the screen looks great... but the can can is too fast....

At 53.3 i get the best, good NTSC screen, and the can can is not too fast, only 7% more, playable

At least i have reports of 7 TVs right now from people in other forums that have not problem to use 53.3hz in NTSC

It seems all Sony Trinitron can go lower and very high

For example, my 14" KV-14T1E, can go down to 53.3hz in NTSC, and up to 67.24hz in NTSC!!

Play DOS games in DOSbox that originally runs at 70hz in 60hz is too slow, but in 67.24 they run almost at native speed :)

It isn't NTSC, or PAL, just RGB with very odd timings. You're lucky the the monitor can sync to the lower Hsync rate (around 15.2KHz rather than 15.625KHz).

TmEE wrote

It isn't NTSC, or PAL, just RGB with very odd timings. You're lucky the the monitor can sync to the lower Hsync rate (around 15.2KHz rather than 15.625KHz).

Well, yes, but is easy to identify PAL to 50hz and NTSC to 60hz, or some people will get confused, happen in other forums i post

basically, the only important is to go as low as possible, and still be on 240p land

After posting same thing in other forums, and get the feedback, it seems not, im not lucky with my TV, because most if not all reports are positive ! yea

Thats good news. If this odd timings only work in some TVs will not be very practical

Hope some feedback here too, for sure many people is using setups with soft15khz or similar

TmEE wrote

Most SMS games I have tried run poorly in 60Hz, lot of slowdown and choppiness.

Wouldn't that be actually the same amount of slowdown, only more noticeable since PAL already runs slow and there's less of a difference?

I think the best solution would be to emulate a 50Hz console, then increase the emulator's (not the emulated console's) speed to match 60Hz, so that it would keep the same internal PAL timing and the less noticeable slowdown intact... but I don't know if anybody has ever tried such a thing.

ICEknight wrote

Wouldn't that be actually the same amount of slowdown, only more noticeable since PAL already runs slow and there's less of a difference?

No, but thats why i made overclock in mess

With overclock, all this slowdown dissapear, plus some games, like Bram Stoker Dracula, have no glitches at 60hz

The main problem is that if a game is made for 50hz, and you play in 60hz, there is a 17% of speed difference, and nothing can be done about this

But in 53.3hz, the difference is much less, only 7%

For me, this is the perfect setup for PAL only games, that were made for 50hz timming, 53.3hz+overclocked mess

theelf wrote

The main problem is that if a game is made for 50hz, and you play in 60hz, there is a 17% of speed difference, and nothing can be done about this

Out of curiosity, which games do you mean?

ICEknight wrote

theelf wrote

The main problem is that if a game is made for 50hz, and you play in 60hz, there is a 17% of speed difference, and nothing can be done about this
Out of curiosity, which games do you mean?

Lemmings for example, in NTSC is too fast, this is a 50hz only game

Just that one?

ICEknight wrote

Just that one?

Well, one game is enough to do something

But there is other games too, like Fire & Forget II, Xenon2,NewZealand Story, Zool,Predator 2, Ottifans, Bram Stoker's Dracula, Back to the Future III, Addams Family... thereare more, i dont remember now

Some games besides bad speed, show glitches, like Dracula, thats why i compile a mess with overclock, to solve the problem

Other games, like Sonic 1 or 2, run like shit in 60hz, and overclock is the only solution. In this case, i preffer 53.3hz + overclock

Codemaster games, dont work in NTSC because resolution, and are too fast in 60hz, Dizzy or Micromachines for example

There is some unreleased PAL only, like Lemmings 2

Normally, configuring emulator to use PAL on this games, and NTSC in all rest is enough, but PAL games have too much black borders, thats why i decide to find a better solution, and i finally end with a dual setup, 53.3hz/60hz

for my, best of the two worlds

ICEknight wrote

Wouldn't that be actually the same amount of slowdown, only more noticeable since PAL already runs slow and there's less of a difference?

No, There's 16% more CPU time per frame in 50Hz and VRAM bandwidth is massively higher also (997 bytes vs 1724). This applies to most machines, 50Hz has always more CPU time per frame and video bandwidth is usually much higher too. There's a reason all the impressive demos and whatnot work in 50Hz only, it just isn't possible in 60Hz.

Now as for as my TV goes, I don't need any custom resolutions, I just press the aspect ratio button and the image is nicely vertically stretched so that the bars turn into same size as they would in 60Hz operation. Or in 60Hz I can press it and the image will be compressed vertically so that it appears like normal 50Hz operation.
No need for custom resolutions etc.

TmEE wrote

Now as for as my TV goes, I don't need any custom resolutions, I just press the aspect ratio button and the image is nicely vertically stretched so that the bars turn into same size as they would in 60Hz operation. Or in 60Hz I can press it and the image will be compressed vertically so that it appears like normal 50Hz operation.
No need for custom resolutions etc.

Is a widescreen TV?

If is 4:3 can you post some shots? never saw any widescreen option like you say in all (4:3) TVs i had, interesting to see

In can force widescreen options in some new 4:3 TVs i have, but thats just will stretch the screen much more, never make it big

The TV is a early 2000's 28" Philips. 28PT4404. Most similar Philips TVs have this function, and they got better tubes than most other manufacturers (including but not limited to Sony).

50Hz -
http://www.tmeeco.eu/BitShit/SMS50normal.jpg
http://www.tmeeco.eu/BitShit/SMS50expanded.jpg
http://www.tmeeco.eu/BitShit/SMS50compressed.jpg

60Hz -
http://www.tmeeco.eu/BitShit/SMS60normal.jpg
http://www.tmeeco.eu/BitShit/SMS60expanded.jpg
http://www.tmeeco.eu/BitShit/SMS60compressed.jpg

SMS50normal.jpg (631.22 KB)

Attachment fairy

SMS50expanded.jpg (589 KB)

SMS50compressed.jpg (506.61 KB)

SMS60normal.jpg (616.79 KB)

SMS60expanded.jpg (697.55 KB)

SMS60compressed.jpg (527.11 KB)

TmEE wrote

The TV is a early 2000's 28" Philips. 28PT4404. Most similar Philips TVs have this function, and they got better tubes than most other manufacturers (including but not limited to Sony).

50Hz -
http://www.tmeeco.eu/BitShit/SMS50normal.jpg
http://www.tmeeco.eu/BitShit/SMS50expanded.jpg
http://www.tmeeco.eu/BitShit/SMS50compressed.jpg

60Hz -
http://www.tmeeco.eu/BitShit/SMS60normal.jpg
http://www.tmeeco.eu/BitShit/SMS60expanded.jpg
http://www.tmeeco.eu/BitShit/SMS60compressed.jpg

First, thanks to pictures. Second ...mm..nice TV you have there! i will try to find a 14" Philips from same line!! i love to collect CRT jejeje

For my taste, even in expanded 50hz, you have too much borders

Here is Sonic in my TV at 53.3hz, in my personal opinion much better, almost fullscreen, and still very near from 50hz speed (anyways, sonic is a 60hz game... I think)

Of course, if the speed difference from 50hz to 53.3hz is a problem, better to do like you with the TV, and use proper 50hz mode

I realize for me the speed difference is not a big deal from 50 to 53.3

50 to 60hz yes, too much for my taste, thats why i started to find the limits of 15khz TVs

Again, thanks for pictures, and TV model, very usefull

sms53.jpg (45.27 KB)

I have calibrated my TV to show ALL the image there is. So on stuff like computer output and digiboxes I see everything and nothing is hidden anywhere. In default setting the borders would be much smaller but I hate the idea of seeing less image than there really is.

And of course using real hardware is a must, emulation is only for development for me :P

TmEE wrote

I have calibrated my TV to show ALL the image there is. So on stuff like computer output and digiboxes I see everything and nothing is hidden anywhere. In default setting the borders would be much smaller but I hate the idea of seeing less image than there really is.

And of course using real hardware is a must, emulation is only for development for me :P

I preffer to hide as much is possible any kind of border, and not useful areas. See a black or color border is not a valid option for me anymore

In fact now, what im doing is separating games that show full 256 from games that have strip bar, and show 248, to make custom resolution for this games, ad hide the bar (like sonic 1)

I suffer of this "problem" during all 80s and early 90s, specially with the Amiga or C64, that most games, convert the 14" screen in a 9" arrgggg

Now is time to revenge!

Exept for texting purposes, real hardware in the shelf... for collection :)

Showing overscan is good for broadcast SD TV as you gain resolution (and sometimes some junk) but having a good zoom/pan/scale control is good for video games. However, when emulating I don't see why you need to care, you can scale images and run at any emulated speed you like.

Maxim wrote

Showing overscan is good for broadcast SD TV as you gain resolution (and sometimes some junk) but having a good zoom/pan/scale control is good for video games. However, when emulating I don't see why you need to care, you can scale images and run at any emulated speed you like.

Is impossible to scale vertically and keep integer numbers

Of course, you can scale from 192 to 288 and fill a 50hz screen, but this is not a option to me

TmEE wrote

Most SMS games I have tried run poorly in 60Hz, lot of slowdown and choppiness.

I don't agree that games like Sonic 1 run poorly, especially since they still run at the correct speed. It even has slowdown in the same places on GameGear (which is less noticeable because of the smaller screen, but still there. The falling bridges on Bridge Zone are where it's most noticeable).

Sonic 2 also runs at the same speed as the GG. It does have that blinking garbage at the top of the screen, but it doesn't interfere with gameplay.

I don't think the slowdown is due to not running properly in NTSC. I heard Thunder Force IV for Megadrive has less slowdown in PAL, despite being originally designed with NTSC in mind.

BrianC wrote

I don't think the slowdown is due to not running properly in NTSC. I heard Thunder Force IV for Megadrive has less slowdown in PAL, despite being originally designed with NTSC in mind.

The point is that since NTSC runs at 60Hz instead of 50Hz, it's 20% more demanding on the CPU. The Z80 equipped in NTSC Master Systems is indeed faster than the PAL ones', but by nowhere near 20% (3.579545 MHz versus 3.546893 MHz, a mere 0.9%).

Tom wrote

BrianC wrote

I don't think the slowdown is due to not running properly in NTSC. I heard Thunder Force IV for Megadrive has less slowdown in PAL, despite being originally designed with NTSC in mind.
The point is that since NTSC runs at 60Hz instead of 50Hz, it's 20% more demanding on the CPU. The Z80 equipped in NTSC Master Systems is indeed faster than the PAL ones', but by nowhere near 20% (3.579545 MHz versus 3.546893 MHz, a mere 0.9%).

yes, I get the point, but I don't agree the games run poorly. I think my point was missed. It seems many games that run at the correct speed in NTSC are made out to run worse than they actually run (going by the EU games I played on my US and JP SMS and what I tried in emulator and using the GG versions of some games for comparison). I played Sonic 1 and 2 on real hardware and I feel the slowdown in NTSC is overstated (I mean there is more than in PAL, but far from game breaking). I highly disagree that the games play poorly in NTSC.

60Hz has a higher frame rate (duh) but less CPU per frame, so more slowdown. How much much difference both factors make depends on the game, so you can't generalise.

Just fyi, since I have a Game Gear, I always played at 60Hz, and I never meant to say that the games run "poorly" at that speed, I was just replying mathematically to an observation. All the games I played always seemed fine to me. The fact that I clarified a point doesn't mean that I agree with the OP; actually, I think this whole topic and the concept behind the "53.3 Hz" thing are a joke, but I always restrained myself from saying that in order not to sound impolite, but now I feel I do have to clarify my position about that as well.

Author	Message
theelf Joined: 26 Dec 2013 Posts: 34	Mess + NTSC 53.3hz Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:21 pm
theelf Joined: 26 Dec 2013 Posts: 34	Hi, sorry my english I have a PC connected to a CRT TV via VGA>RGB Scart One of the main problems I have with real master system, consoles is that.... If I use PAL, I get too much black borders, but correct speed in a lot of pal games If I use NTSC this PAL games run too fast..but almost not black borders Some time ago, i found a way to have the best of both worlds, i manage to do a modeline with a timming of 53.3khz NTSC Modeline "1792x224_60 15.3KHz 53.3Hz" 36.960 1792 1876 2054 2416 224 247 250 287 -hsync -vsync **I use 1792px, but anyone can use whatever want This give only 7% faster gameplay than real 50hz PAL (much best than the 17% faster of play in 60hz) and NTSC fullscreen For first time IN YEARS im soo happy to play a master system in a CRT :) finally my dream come true I compile a mess with overclock for master system, the PAL games dont give problems in NTSC (Bram Stoker Dracula for example) http://akihabara-online.com/Main/Emula/mess_overclock_di.zip In mess.ini just change speed from 1.00 to 0.888 if you use 53.3hz If someone have a PC connected to a CRT using RGB, will be interesting for me, to know if is possible to have such a lot NTSC timming At least in my two 14" Trinitron TV without problem By the way, i upload some photos of my PC for emulation, is a small thin client, Futro S500, and the frontend is Mala. The theme is personal, i made myself Greetings sonic.jpg (38.7 KB) 010.jpg (32 KB) futro 013.jpg (72.15 KB) mala 031.jpg (72.13 KB) MS mala

ICEknight Joined: 03 Apr 2001 Posts: 601 Location: Asturias	Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:42 am
	theelf wrote If I use PAL, I get too much black borders, but correct speed in a lot of pal games If I use NTSC this PAL games run too fast..but almost not black borders Most SMS games were just designed to run at NTSC speed, so playing them at any lower speeds than that is not the intended way to go...

TmEE Joined: 31 Oct 2007 Posts: 853 Location: Estonia, Rapla city	Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 3:15 am
	Most SMS games I have tried run poorly in 60Hz, lot of slowdown and choppiness. This resolution you've created here may not work so well on all devices, you can probably get straight 50Hz work on some other monitor without problem.

theelf Joined: 26 Dec 2013 Posts: 34	Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 6:11 am
theelf Joined: 26 Dec 2013 Posts: 34	ICEknight wrote theelf wrote If I use PAL, I get too much black borders, but correct speed in a lot of pal games If I use NTSC this PAL games run too fast..but almost not black borders Most SMS games were just designed to run at NTSC speed, so playing them at any lower speeds than that is not the intended way to go... Well, the idea is if a game run well at 60hz..... you play at 60hz. If something work well, dont touch! This is only for games that not run well at 60hz, but you don' t wanna play in "widescreen" PAL 50hz TmEE wrote Most SMS games I have tried run poorly in 60Hz, lot of slowdown and choppiness. This resolution you've created here may not work so well on all devices, you can probably get straight 50Hz work on some other monitor without problem. 50hz is just PAL, is impossible to have NTSC in 50hz on a regular CRT TV At 50hz, the can can in lemmings sound great, but the widescreen PAL is too much for me... in 60hz, the screen looks great... but the can can is too fast.... At 53.3 i get the best, good NTSC screen, and the can can is not too fast, only 7% more, playable At least i have reports of 7 TVs right now from people in other forums that have not problem to use 53.3hz in NTSC It seems all Sony Trinitron can go lower and very high For example, my 14" KV-14T1E, can go down to 53.3hz in NTSC, and up to 67.24hz in NTSC!! Play DOS games in DOSbox that originally runs at 70hz in 60hz is too slow, but in 67.24 they run almost at native speed :)

TmEE Joined: 31 Oct 2007 Posts: 853 Location: Estonia, Rapla city	Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 8:56 am
	It isn't NTSC, or PAL, just RGB with very odd timings. You're lucky the the monitor can sync to the lower Hsync rate (around 15.2KHz rather than 15.625KHz).

theelf Joined: 26 Dec 2013 Posts: 34	Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 10:00 am
theelf Joined: 26 Dec 2013 Posts: 34	TmEE wrote It isn't NTSC, or PAL, just RGB with very odd timings. You're lucky the the monitor can sync to the lower Hsync rate (around 15.2KHz rather than 15.625KHz). Well, yes, but is easy to identify PAL to 50hz and NTSC to 60hz, or some people will get confused, happen in other forums i post basically, the only important is to go as low as possible, and still be on 240p land After posting same thing in other forums, and get the feedback, it seems not, im not lucky with my TV, because most if not all reports are positive ! yea Thats good news. If this odd timings only work in some TVs will not be very practical Hope some feedback here too, for sure many people is using setups with soft15khz or similar

ICEknight Joined: 03 Apr 2001 Posts: 601 Location: Asturias	Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 2:35 pm
	TmEE wrote Most SMS games I have tried run poorly in 60Hz, lot of slowdown and choppiness. Wouldn't that be actually the same amount of slowdown, only more noticeable since PAL already runs slow and there's less of a difference? I think the best solution would be to emulate a 50Hz console, then increase the emulator's (not the emulated console's) speed to match 60Hz, so that it would keep the same internal PAL timing and the less noticeable slowdown intact... but I don't know if anybody has ever tried such a thing.

theelf Joined: 26 Dec 2013 Posts: 34	Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 4:00 pm
theelf Joined: 26 Dec 2013 Posts: 34	ICEknight wrote Wouldn't that be actually the same amount of slowdown, only more noticeable since PAL already runs slow and there's less of a difference? No, but thats why i made overclock in mess With overclock, all this slowdown dissapear, plus some games, like Bram Stoker Dracula, have no glitches at 60hz The main problem is that if a game is made for 50hz, and you play in 60hz, there is a 17% of speed difference, and nothing can be done about this But in 53.3hz, the difference is much less, only 7% For me, this is the perfect setup for PAL only games, that were made for 50hz timming, 53.3hz+overclocked mess

ICEknight Joined: 03 Apr 2001 Posts: 601 Location: Asturias	Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 10:28 pm
	theelf wrote The main problem is that if a game is made for 50hz, and you play in 60hz, there is a 17% of speed difference, and nothing can be done about this Out of curiosity, which games do you mean?

theelf Joined: 26 Dec 2013 Posts: 34	Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 10:38 pm
theelf Joined: 26 Dec 2013 Posts: 34	ICEknight wrote theelf wrote The main problem is that if a game is made for 50hz, and you play in 60hz, there is a 17% of speed difference, and nothing can be done about this Out of curiosity, which games do you mean? Lemmings for example, in NTSC is too fast, this is a 50hz only game

ICEknight Joined: 03 Apr 2001 Posts: 601 Location: Asturias	Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 11:22 pm
	Just that one?

theelf Joined: 26 Dec 2013 Posts: 34	Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 12:09 am
theelf Joined: 26 Dec 2013 Posts: 34	ICEknight wrote Just that one? Well, one game is enough to do something But there is other games too, like Fire & Forget II, Xenon2,NewZealand Story, Zool,Predator 2, Ottifans, Bram Stoker's Dracula, Back to the Future III, Addams Family... thereare more, i dont remember now Some games besides bad speed, show glitches, like Dracula, thats why i compile a mess with overclock, to solve the problem Other games, like Sonic 1 or 2, run like shit in 60hz, and overclock is the only solution. In this case, i preffer 53.3hz + overclock Codemaster games, dont work in NTSC because resolution, and are too fast in 60hz, Dizzy or Micromachines for example There is some unreleased PAL only, like Lemmings 2 Normally, configuring emulator to use PAL on this games, and NTSC in all rest is enough, but PAL games have too much black borders, thats why i decide to find a better solution, and i finally end with a dual setup, 53.3hz/60hz for my, best of the two worlds

TmEE Joined: 31 Oct 2007 Posts: 853 Location: Estonia, Rapla city	Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 3:29 am
	ICEknight wrote Wouldn't that be actually the same amount of slowdown, only more noticeable since PAL already runs slow and there's less of a difference? No, There's 16% more CPU time per frame in 50Hz and VRAM bandwidth is massively higher also (997 bytes vs 1724). This applies to most machines, 50Hz has always more CPU time per frame and video bandwidth is usually much higher too. There's a reason all the impressive demos and whatnot work in 50Hz only, it just isn't possible in 60Hz. Now as for as my TV goes, I don't need any custom resolutions, I just press the aspect ratio button and the image is nicely vertically stretched so that the bars turn into same size as they would in 60Hz operation. Or in 60Hz I can press it and the image will be compressed vertically so that it appears like normal 50Hz operation. No need for custom resolutions etc.

theelf Joined: 26 Dec 2013 Posts: 34	Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 8:01 am
theelf Joined: 26 Dec 2013 Posts: 34	TmEE wrote Now as for as my TV goes, I don't need any custom resolutions, I just press the aspect ratio button and the image is nicely vertically stretched so that the bars turn into same size as they would in 60Hz operation. Or in 60Hz I can press it and the image will be compressed vertically so that it appears like normal 50Hz operation. No need for custom resolutions etc. Is a widescreen TV? If is 4:3 can you post some shots? never saw any widescreen option like you say in all (4:3) TVs i had, interesting to see In can force widescreen options in some new 4:3 TVs i have, but thats just will stretch the screen much more, never make it big

TmEE Joined: 31 Oct 2007 Posts: 853 Location: Estonia, Rapla city	Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 12:58 pm
	The TV is a early 2000's 28" Philips. 28PT4404. Most similar Philips TVs have this function, and they got better tubes than most other manufacturers (including but not limited to Sony). 50Hz - http://www.tmeeco.eu/BitShit/SMS50normal.jpg http://www.tmeeco.eu/BitShit/SMS50expanded.jpg http://www.tmeeco.eu/BitShit/SMS50compressed.jpg 60Hz - http://www.tmeeco.eu/BitShit/SMS60normal.jpg http://www.tmeeco.eu/BitShit/SMS60expanded.jpg http://www.tmeeco.eu/BitShit/SMS60compressed.jpg SMS50normal.jpg (631.22 KB) Attachment fairy SMS50expanded.jpg (589 KB) SMS50compressed.jpg (506.61 KB) SMS60normal.jpg (616.79 KB) SMS60expanded.jpg (697.55 KB) SMS60compressed.jpg (527.11 KB)

theelf Joined: 26 Dec 2013 Posts: 34	Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 1:25 pm
theelf Joined: 26 Dec 2013 Posts: 34	TmEE wrote The TV is a early 2000's 28" Philips. 28PT4404. Most similar Philips TVs have this function, and they got better tubes than most other manufacturers (including but not limited to Sony). 50Hz - http://www.tmeeco.eu/BitShit/SMS50normal.jpg http://www.tmeeco.eu/BitShit/SMS50expanded.jpg http://www.tmeeco.eu/BitShit/SMS50compressed.jpg 60Hz - http://www.tmeeco.eu/BitShit/SMS60normal.jpg http://www.tmeeco.eu/BitShit/SMS60expanded.jpg http://www.tmeeco.eu/BitShit/SMS60compressed.jpg First, thanks to pictures. Second ...mm..nice TV you have there! i will try to find a 14" Philips from same line!! i love to collect CRT jejeje For my taste, even in expanded 50hz, you have too much borders Here is Sonic in my TV at 53.3hz, in my personal opinion much better, almost fullscreen, and still very near from 50hz speed (anyways, sonic is a 60hz game... I think) Of course, if the speed difference from 50hz to 53.3hz is a problem, better to do like you with the TV, and use proper 50hz mode I realize for me the speed difference is not a big deal from 50 to 53.3 50 to 60hz yes, too much for my taste, thats why i started to find the limits of 15khz TVs Again, thanks for pictures, and TV model, very usefull sms53.jpg (45.27 KB)

TmEE Joined: 31 Oct 2007 Posts: 853 Location: Estonia, Rapla city	Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:37 pm
	I have calibrated my TV to show ALL the image there is. So on stuff like computer output and digiboxes I see everything and nothing is hidden anywhere. In default setting the borders would be much smaller but I hate the idea of seeing less image than there really is. And of course using real hardware is a must, emulation is only for development for me :P

theelf Joined: 26 Dec 2013 Posts: 34	Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 7:42 am
theelf Joined: 26 Dec 2013 Posts: 34	TmEE wrote I have calibrated my TV to show ALL the image there is. So on stuff like computer output and digiboxes I see everything and nothing is hidden anywhere. In default setting the borders would be much smaller but I hate the idea of seeing less image than there really is. And of course using real hardware is a must, emulation is only for development for me :P I preffer to hide as much is possible any kind of border, and not useful areas. See a black or color border is not a valid option for me anymore In fact now, what im doing is separating games that show full 256 from games that have strip bar, and show 248, to make custom resolution for this games, ad hide the bar (like sonic 1) I suffer of this "problem" during all 80s and early 90s, specially with the Amiga or C64, that most games, convert the 14" screen in a 9" arrgggg Now is time to revenge! Exept for texting purposes, real hardware in the shelf... for collection :)

Maxim Site Admin Joined: 19 Oct 1999 Posts: 14745 Location: London	Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 10:50 am
	Showing overscan is good for broadcast SD TV as you gain resolution (and sometimes some junk) but having a good zoom/pan/scale control is good for video games. However, when emulating I don't see why you need to care, you can scale images and run at any emulated speed you like.

theelf Joined: 26 Dec 2013 Posts: 34	Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:03 am
theelf Joined: 26 Dec 2013 Posts: 34	Maxim wrote Showing overscan is good for broadcast SD TV as you gain resolution (and sometimes some junk) but having a good zoom/pan/scale control is good for video games. However, when emulating I don't see why you need to care, you can scale images and run at any emulated speed you like. Is impossible to scale vertically and keep integer numbers Of course, you can scale from 192 to 288 and fill a 50hz screen, but this is not a option to me

BrianC Joined: 28 Mar 2006 Posts: 36	Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 8:30 pm
BrianC Joined: 28 Mar 2006 Posts: 36	TmEE wrote Most SMS games I have tried run poorly in 60Hz, lot of slowdown and choppiness. I don't agree that games like Sonic 1 run poorly, especially since they still run at the correct speed. It even has slowdown in the same places on GameGear (which is less noticeable because of the smaller screen, but still there. The falling bridges on Bridge Zone are where it's most noticeable). Sonic 2 also runs at the same speed as the GG. It does have that blinking garbage at the top of the screen, but it doesn't interfere with gameplay. I don't think the slowdown is due to not running properly in NTSC. I heard Thunder Force IV for Megadrive has less slowdown in PAL, despite being originally designed with NTSC in mind.

Tom Joined: 16 May 2002 Posts: 1356 Location: italy	Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 1:11 pm
Tom Joined: 16 May 2002 Posts: 1356 Location: italy	BrianC wrote I don't think the slowdown is due to not running properly in NTSC. I heard Thunder Force IV for Megadrive has less slowdown in PAL, despite being originally designed with NTSC in mind. The point is that since NTSC runs at 60Hz instead of 50Hz, it's 20% more demanding on the CPU. The Z80 equipped in NTSC Master Systems is indeed faster than the PAL ones', but by nowhere near 20% (3.579545 MHz versus 3.546893 MHz, a mere 0.9%).

BrianC Joined: 28 Mar 2006 Posts: 36	Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 2:38 pm
BrianC Joined: 28 Mar 2006 Posts: 36	Tom wrote BrianC wrote I don't think the slowdown is due to not running properly in NTSC. I heard Thunder Force IV for Megadrive has less slowdown in PAL, despite being originally designed with NTSC in mind. The point is that since NTSC runs at 60Hz instead of 50Hz, it's 20% more demanding on the CPU. The Z80 equipped in NTSC Master Systems is indeed faster than the PAL ones', but by nowhere near 20% (3.579545 MHz versus 3.546893 MHz, a mere 0.9%). yes, I get the point, but I don't agree the games run poorly. I think my point was missed. It seems many games that run at the correct speed in NTSC are made out to run worse than they actually run (going by the EU games I played on my US and JP SMS and what I tried in emulator and using the GG versions of some games for comparison). I played Sonic 1 and 2 on real hardware and I feel the slowdown in NTSC is overstated (I mean there is more than in PAL, but far from game breaking). I highly disagree that the games play poorly in NTSC.

Maxim Site Admin Joined: 19 Oct 1999 Posts: 14745 Location: London	Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:18 pm
	60Hz has a higher frame rate (duh) but less CPU per frame, so more slowdown. How much much difference both factors make depends on the game, so you can't generalise.

Tom Joined: 16 May 2002 Posts: 1356 Location: italy	Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 5:08 pm
Tom Joined: 16 May 2002 Posts: 1356 Location: italy	Just fyi, since I have a Game Gear, I always played at 60Hz, and I never meant to say that the games run "poorly" at that speed, I was just replying mathematically to an observation. All the games I played always seemed fine to me. The fact that I clarified a point doesn't mean that I agree with the OP; actually, I think this whole topic and the concept behind the "53.3 Hz" thing are a joke, but I always restrained myself from saying that in order not to sound impolite, but now I feel I do have to clarify my position about that as well.

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