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I felt like I was cluttering up this forum too much with all my maps threads so, in absence of a sticky thread, I am creating a generic one where we can discuss about maps in general, hoping it's a good idea.

I'll start with a question about Super Monaco GP.

Would this be a good idea?

85655400.png (5.18 KB)

Certainly, why not. But please use attachments :) because Imageshack deletes images at random, and my work web filter blocks all major image hosts :(

I am trying to start using attachments, I just feel guilty to abuse smspower's bandwidth, so I still use imageshack for this kind of temporary images when all I have to ask is "is this alright?" :)
If I attached the map above, and uploaded it in the maps sections, there would be two copies of it on smspower's server, and I'd feel bad about it.

Don't feel bad about it. We're not gonna run out of space with map files. But yeah anyway its better if you just add things into the Wiki directly :)

In this case I didn't upload it directly because I wasn't sure what was the best idea: 16 small (160×80) separate maps or a gigantic map with all of them, as Maxim once suggested when I asked about the 100×100 thumbnails in the Pengo thread.
(by the way, there is at least one game with thumbnails smaller than 100×100)

See, I might be chaotic, but I am in good faith after all :)

I am uploading this mosaic right now.

edit: and done.

You can always delete attachments later.

I made the small thumbnails for Lemmings as an experiment - 120 larger thumbnails is a bit oppressive, and I did have varying thumbnail sizes for games with only one map, which I have since changed to allow the Maps index to look cool. It turns out I need to remake the Lemmings maps anyway (the "repeat" maps actually have some minor modifications) and I was planning on standardising then.

The judgement between many small maps and one huge one is really not super important; making maps is not an exact science, you have to use your judgement as to what you think looks nicer.

Speaking of which, I'd be tempted to add some padding at the bottom of the image, or make use of the border lines you see in-game.

Suggestion needed.

I wanted to make a map for Sonic Edusoft, but...

Some areas are unreachable
Some objects look wrong (e.g. the palmtree at the top-centre has some weird leaves)

So I wonder, how legit would it be if I "complete" the missing areas of the map by guessing their content, and I "fix" the broken palmtree?

Are there other things that should be "fixed"? The right sides of the waterfalls are different (sometimes they use a full square, some other times they use two halved squares), some pixels are wrong all over the place, and so on. However, I think it wouldn't be a good idea to forge the map like that. What do you think?

31107995.png (32.07 KB)

93178056.png (32.33 KB)

It's really up to you - do what pleases you the most, as making the map is hard enough without trying to match other people's requirements. Having said that, I'll say what I think.

I always want it to look how it appears in the game, under ideal conditions. So I'll make sure any animation is consistent - the same frame - but no editing the graphics to remove mistakes. For things that are out of view, the best thing is to trick the game into displaying them - which is hard. Maybe you can hack the positions it scrolls to or try grabbing graphics from the tilemap viewer. Maybe the whole tilemap is in RAM so you could figure it out from there. As I said, hard. Else, yes, make it up - within reason. I wouldn't fix the palm tree but others would. (I 'fixed' loads of non-visible things on my Sonic 1 maps and 'made up' loads on my WB3 overworld map, but these days I probably wouldn't.)

Compare to this: http://www.vgmaps.com/Atlas/MasterSystem/Sonic'sEdusoft(E)-World.png and you're already ahead :)

Oh, once again I didn't think about looking if a map existed already, so once again I redid something that was already done by someone. Neat.

I thought about hacking the game to see the unreachable areas, but sadly that's far beyond my skills. I think my guesses are reasonable (I extended the waterfalls, for the most part), but of course I can't be 100% sure.

re: the palmtree. I didn't want to fix it, either, I am against this kind of forgery just like you are, and in fact I didn't "fix" anything else. But since I had to "create" another palmtree right next to it (in the "guessed" area), I thought it would have been weird to have one broken palmtree and a correct one next to eachother, unless I use the "wrong" leaves for the other one as well...

re: the animations. The sea is consistent, and the waterfalls should be too (sometimes the screen was half redrawn so some of the waterfall looked right and some looked wrong, but I fixed that with some copy and paste); the only other animated things are the little groups of 4 balloons, and I admit I'm not sure if I got them right, because I'm not sure if their animation cycle was the same as the sea (which I used as a reference).

In the end, I think I should keep the version with the completed areas (unless someone can actually hack the game), but I should "unfix" the palmtree for consistency.

I agree - but again, don't let my standards affect yours :) I may have a go at hacking it if I get time.

And... done.

Write to RAM address C5A7 to change X, C5A8 to change Y. Type F8 to go left/up and 08 to go right/down.

Author	Message
Tom Joined: 16 May 2002 Posts: 1356 Location: italy	Level Maps (in general) Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 3:10 pm
Tom Joined: 16 May 2002 Posts: 1356 Location: italy	I felt like I was cluttering up this forum too much with all my maps threads so, in absence of a sticky thread, I am creating a generic one where we can discuss about maps in general, hoping it's a good idea. I'll start with a question about Super Monaco GP. Would this be a good idea? 85655400.png (5.18 KB)

Maxim Site Admin Joined: 19 Oct 1999 Posts: 14747 Location: London	Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 3:46 pm
	Certainly, why not. But please use attachments :) because Imageshack deletes images at random, and my work web filter blocks all major image hosts :(

Tom Joined: 16 May 2002 Posts: 1356 Location: italy	Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 3:48 pm
Tom Joined: 16 May 2002 Posts: 1356 Location: italy	I am trying to start using attachments, I just feel guilty to abuse smspower's bandwidth, so I still use imageshack for this kind of temporary images when all I have to ask is "is this alright?" :) If I attached the map above, and uploaded it in the maps sections, there would be two copies of it on smspower's server, and I'd feel bad about it.

Bock Site Admin Joined: 08 Jul 2001 Posts: 8653 Location: Paris, France	Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 3:50 pm
	Don't feel bad about it. We're not gonna run out of space with map files. But yeah anyway its better if you just add things into the Wiki directly :)

Tom Joined: 16 May 2002 Posts: 1356 Location: italy	Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 4:01 pm
Tom Joined: 16 May 2002 Posts: 1356 Location: italy	In this case I didn't upload it directly because I wasn't sure what was the best idea: 16 small (160×80) separate maps or a gigantic map with all of them, as Maxim once suggested when I asked about the 100×100 thumbnails in the Pengo thread. (by the way, there is at least one game with thumbnails smaller than 100×100) See, I might be chaotic, but I am in good faith after all :) I am uploading this mosaic right now. edit: and done.

Maxim Site Admin Joined: 19 Oct 1999 Posts: 14747 Location: London	Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 4:36 pm
	You can always delete attachments later. I made the small thumbnails for Lemmings as an experiment - 120 larger thumbnails is a bit oppressive, and I did have varying thumbnail sizes for games with only one map, which I have since changed to allow the Maps index to look cool. It turns out I need to remake the Lemmings maps anyway (the "repeat" maps actually have some minor modifications) and I was planning on standardising then. The judgement between many small maps and one huge one is really not super important; making maps is not an exact science, you have to use your judgement as to what you think looks nicer. Speaking of which, I'd be tempted to add some padding at the bottom of the image, or make use of the border lines you see in-game.

Tom Joined: 16 May 2002 Posts: 1356 Location: italy	Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:13 am
Tom Joined: 16 May 2002 Posts: 1356 Location: italy	Suggestion needed. I wanted to make a map for Sonic Edusoft, but... Some areas are unreachable Some objects look wrong (e.g. the palmtree at the top-centre has some weird leaves) So I wonder, how legit would it be if I "complete" the missing areas of the map by guessing their content, and I "fix" the broken palmtree? Are there other things that should be "fixed"? The right sides of the waterfalls are different (sometimes they use a full square, some other times they use two halved squares), some pixels are wrong all over the place, and so on. However, I think it wouldn't be a good idea to forge the map like that. What do you think? 31107995.png (32.07 KB) 93178056.png (32.33 KB)

Maxim Site Admin Joined: 19 Oct 1999 Posts: 14747 Location: London	Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:22 am
	It's really up to you - do what pleases you the most, as making the map is hard enough without trying to match other people's requirements. Having said that, I'll say what I think. I always want it to look how it appears in the game, under ideal conditions. So I'll make sure any animation is consistent - the same frame - but no editing the graphics to remove mistakes. For things that are out of view, the best thing is to trick the game into displaying them - which is hard. Maybe you can hack the positions it scrolls to or try grabbing graphics from the tilemap viewer. Maybe the whole tilemap is in RAM so you could figure it out from there. As I said, hard. Else, yes, make it up - within reason. I wouldn't fix the palm tree but others would. (I 'fixed' loads of non-visible things on my Sonic 1 maps and 'made up' loads on my WB3 overworld map, but these days I probably wouldn't.) Compare to this: http://www.vgmaps.com/Atlas/MasterSystem/Sonic'sEdusoft(E)-World.png and you're already ahead :)

Tom Joined: 16 May 2002 Posts: 1356 Location: italy	Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:30 am
Tom Joined: 16 May 2002 Posts: 1356 Location: italy	Oh, once again I didn't think about looking if a map existed already, so once again I redid something that was already done by someone. Neat. I thought about hacking the game to see the unreachable areas, but sadly that's far beyond my skills. I think my guesses are reasonable (I extended the waterfalls, for the most part), but of course I can't be 100% sure. re: the palmtree. I didn't want to fix it, either, I am against this kind of forgery just like you are, and in fact I didn't "fix" anything else. But since I had to "create" another palmtree right next to it (in the "guessed" area), I thought it would have been weird to have one broken palmtree and a correct one next to eachother, unless I use the "wrong" leaves for the other one as well... re: the animations. The sea is consistent, and the waterfalls should be too (sometimes the screen was half redrawn so some of the waterfall looked right and some looked wrong, but I fixed that with some copy and paste); the only other animated things are the little groups of 4 balloons, and I admit I'm not sure if I got them right, because I'm not sure if their animation cycle was the same as the sea (which I used as a reference). In the end, I think I should keep the version with the completed areas (unless someone can actually hack the game), but I should "unfix" the palmtree for consistency.

Maxim Site Admin Joined: 19 Oct 1999 Posts: 14747 Location: London	Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:23 am
	I agree - but again, don't let my standards affect yours :) I may have a go at hacking it if I get time.

Maxim Site Admin Joined: 19 Oct 1999 Posts: 14747 Location: London	Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:14 pm
	And... done. Write to RAM address C5A7 to change X, C5A8 to change Y. Type F8 to go left/up and 08 to go right/down.

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