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http://www.emulationzone.org/projects/gym2mid/vgm2mid/beta/

Paul, we don't have, nor do we want to install the .NET framework.

Did you add new functionality to this version??

:(((

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> Paul, we don't have, nor do we want to install the .NET framework.

I've been getting that a lot lately.

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> Did you add new functionality to this version??

Mainly some interface improvements and support for GD3 tags. Most of the improvements have been internal.

The next beta will include support for converting .GYM files to .VGM and .VGZ files, and hopefully support for not only reading, but also writing GD3 tags.

Future additions will probably include support for MIDI format 1 files (finally), and possibly a 'wizard-style' interface to make things a little smoother.

I start a new semester tomorrow morning, and I don't know how much free time I'll have for the next few months. I'll add new features when I have the time.

And as for an updated version of vgm2mid VB5 -- well, we'll see if I have the time and patience to code one.

Paul

-NT- means "no text."

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> The next beta will include support for converting .GYM files to .VGM and .VGZ files, and hopefully support for not only reading, but also writing GD3 tags.

I already added full GYM to VGM support including PCM data redistribution to VGMTool, which already has full GD3 support. I also fixed up the Unicode stuff a bit, it seems to work now. I just need to sort out a few things and release it...

Maxim

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> > Paul, we don't have, nor do we want to install the .NET framework.

> I've been getting that a lot lately.

You asked if anyone would be interested in a .NET version of gym2mid, everyone said no, but you did it anyway.

I'm just mortified that I won't be able to see future versions of vgm2mid, but if you are really wanting to learn .NET then I guess I'll just have to get used to the idea :(

I do have my own objections to installing it, but they mostly stem from superstitious fears rather than anything concrete. There's also the 24 or so megs to download, and no overwhelming need for it (I'd download vgm2mid if I could, but I don't really need it).

What's keeping the rest of you from installing it? I wouldn't be surprised if a couple of people here are still using Win95, which .NET ostensibly doesn't support (not sure about NT), but what other problems are there?

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> I do have my own objections to installing it, but they mostly stem from superstitious fears rather than anything concrete. There's also the 24 or so megs to download, and no overwhelming need for it (I'd download vgm2mid if I could, but I don't really need it).

> What's keeping the rest of you from installing it? I wouldn't be surprised if a couple of people here are still using Win95, which .NET ostensibly doesn't support (not sure about NT), but what other problems are there?

The huge bastard of a download to use one tiny program..

Maybe when Magazines start distributing it on cover CDs, I'll use it, but probably not untill then.

Unless it's part of Windows XP already...

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> > The next beta will include support for converting .GYM files to .VGM and .VGZ files, and hopefully support for not only reading, but also writing GD3 tags.

> I already added full GYM to VGM support including PCM data redistribution to VGMTool, which already has full GD3 support. I also fixed up the Unicode stuff a bit, it seems to work now. I just need to sort out a few things and release it...

Well actually, I just want to see if I can do it. Ever since I read the little note in Genecyst's readme (ah, nostalgia...) about YM2612 logging, I had always wondered if it could be done. Not that it's brain surgery or anything (I wonder if brain surgeons think that what they do is easy!). vgm2mid -- and gym2mid before it -- was created because I wanted to hear what music from Genesis and Mega Drive games would sound like using 'real' instruments. vgm2mid makes that possible.

Everything else is optional. vgm2mid does its job, VGMTool does its job. VGMTool is a fantastic program, and it may be a complete waste of time for me to add features to vgm2mid that already are provided by VGMTool. But no matter whether or not it is a waste of time, adding a feature to my own program is still a great coding exercise.

In all reality, there is not much more I can add to vgm2mid. I have some plans for things like MIDI format 1 support and other interface ideas, but there's not a whole lot more I can add to the program. The core of what the program does has not changed in a long time. vgm2mid could be a console-based program and still get the job done. I could learn ANSI C and port it to DOS so that more people could run it or use the source. No, I do not have to use .NET to get the job done, but it's a hell of a lot easier to use than what I had been using.

The .NET framework is a huge download. I lease a DSL, so downloading 24 MB is not a problem. I understand what a pain it would be for UK dial-up users, who (as far as I understand) pay a per-minute charge for access, to download such a large file. Hopefully some really popular CD-based program will be redesigned using .NET, and penetration (ouch!) will increase to a point at which most people will already have the .NET runtimes installed.

I'm sorry to those who want to try the new version, but can't (or, as seems common, _won't_) use .NET, but unless I get the motivation to do so, there will most likely not be an update of the VB5 version. The good news is that, as I've said, the new version still has the same basic function: converting VGMs to MIDI files. vgm2mid version 0.5 does everything that the .NET version does. Actually, at this point, it does even more. So nobody's missing anything at this point.

Whew! I didn't think I was going to type so much!

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> http://www.emulationzone.org/projects/gym2mid/vgm2mid/beta/

> Paul, we don't have, nor do we want to install the .NET framework.

> Did you add new functionality to this version??

> :(((

It takes a little while to load, but it converts rather quickly, whch is nice... but a notification that it's done would be appreciated.

Can you compile it so it doesn't need the .NET framework?

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> It takes a little while to load, but it converts rather quickly, whch is nice... but a notification that it's done would be appreciated.

The UI needs eome work. I will definitely include a status indicator in a future release. The interface will probably see other changes as well.

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> Can you compile it so it doesn't need the .NET framework?

Unfortunately not. Instead of linking to header files like in C and compiling them as part of the executable (am I correct about this?), .NET compiles all references to classes in the framework as external calls (AFAIK). So as VBRUN DLLs are required for programs written in VB, the DLLs from the framework are required for programs that use .NET classes, one of which is a class which contains all the functions of VB. And (again) AFAIK, the individual DLLs (as in: the VB 7 runtime) cannot be installed without the framework as a whole. It might be a ploy by MS, but who knows?

Does it really need to take up that much memory?

My poor old P133 would have had a heart attack if something other than Explorer or IE used that much RAM...

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>

> Does it really need to take up that much memory?

> My poor old P133 would have had a heart attack if something other than Explorer or IE used that much RAM...

Probably so.

I guess it's because of the size of the CLR (the bulk of the 24+ MB .NET framework), and I may be able to decrease that if I can eliminate some unnecessary references. That is, if VB7 is anything like previous versions of VB, there are probably references to libraries the program will not be using.

Keep in mind, also, that the current build stores all files in RAM once they are added to the conversion list. So if you add 10 - 4MB GYM files to the list, vgm2mid will need 40MB of RAM (plus the base amount) to store all the files.

This is not a good thing, and I've modified my current working build to load and then unload files one by one as they are converted.

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> I do have my own objections to installing it, but they mostly stem from superstitious fears rather than anything concrete. There's also the 24 or so megs to download, and no overwhelming need for it (I'd download vgm2mid if I could, but I don't really need it).

> What's keeping the rest of you from installing it? I wouldn't be surprised if a couple of people here are still using Win95, which .NET ostensibly doesn't support (not sure about NT), but what other problems are there?

I think it's crazy, 25Meg of download and what was it, 17 Meg runtime ram usage for something which takes a 10k-ish VGM file and turns it into a 10k-ish MIDI file.
Given the impact on a computer, it's really not worth it.

Just because Microsoft have lost all perspective, doesn't mean we have to follow. If every programmer out there is going to start programming along the same lines, taking up 17 Megabytes of RAM instead of 17 Kilobytes of ram, and telling everyone they must upgrade, imagine what all our programs will be like in a couple of years.

Weird thing was I thought emulation was the other end of the spectrum, where people went to far the other way (e.g. Steve Snake coding ZIP support from scratch in assembler!)

Anyway, let's all not get crazy now.

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> I think it's crazy, 25Meg of download and what was it, 17 Meg runtime ram usage for something which takes a 10k-ish VGM file and turns it into a 10k-ish MIDI file.
> Given the impact on a computer, it's really not worth it.

Now, that's not quite fair. The 25 meg download is not specifically for VGM2MID - Paul's point is that it's more of a Windows upgrade. You could argue that it's absurd to require an 80+ megabyte operating system to run a small application like this, when it could be done on a 256kb 8086 with dos 3.0. Windows is accepted as a standard, not because it's advanced operating system features are required for the task, but because it's fairly ubiquitous, and writing for that environment allows windows features to be made available, like the familiar windows GUI, clipboard features (dunno if vgm2mid uses it), etc. .NET is intended to be as ubiquitous as the old VB runtimes, and at least it doesn't cost anything extra(connection fees aside).

The 17 meg ram usage thing does seem excessive - though I suspect it's a flat memory cost for all .NET applications as opposed to taking that much per instance.

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> Anyway, let's all not get crazy now.

Naw, it's just for the purpose of debate - I also don't want to install .NET, and nothing's compelled me to do so yet. But the concept of it doesn't bother me so much - I'm just afraid of doing anything else to my shaky, crumbly Windows 98 installation. It's been there three years and it's clearly on its last legs.

Author	Message
dave Guest	Oh please god NO Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2002 11:29 am
dave Guest	http://www.emulationzone.org/projects/gym2mid/vgm2mid/beta/ Paul, we don't have, nor do we want to install the .NET framework. Did you add new functionality to this version?? :(((

Paul Jensen Joined: 29 Jun 1999 Posts: 254 Location: California, USA; Hiroshima, Japan	Funny how threads about vgm2mid have becoming so heated lately... (more...) Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2002 4:46 am
	Quote > Paul, we don't have, nor do we want to install the .NET framework. I've been getting that a lot lately. Quote > Did you add new functionality to this version?? Mainly some interface improvements and support for GD3 tags. Most of the improvements have been internal. The next beta will include support for converting .GYM files to .VGM and .VGZ files, and hopefully support for not only reading, but also writing GD3 tags. Future additions will probably include support for MIDI format 1 files (finally), and possibly a 'wizard-style' interface to make things a little smoother. I start a new semester tomorrow morning, and I don't know how much free time I'll have for the next few months. I'll add new features when I have the time. And as for an updated version of vgm2mid VB5 -- well, we'll see if I have the time and patience to code one. Paul

Paul Jensen Joined: 29 Jun 1999 Posts: 254 Location: California, USA; Hiroshima, Japan	Oh, and I think that I accidentally IMPROVED the quality of conversions in this release. -NT- Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2002 4:48 am
	-NT- means "no text."

Maxim Site Admin Joined: 19 Oct 1999 Posts: 14745 Location: London	GYM2VGM Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:07 am
	Quote > The next beta will include support for converting .GYM files to .VGM and .VGZ files, and hopefully support for not only reading, but also writing GD3 tags. I already added full GYM to VGM support including PCM data redistribution to VGMTool, which already has full GD3 support. I also fixed up the Unicode stuff a bit, it seems to work now. I just need to sort out a few things and release it... Maxim

dave Guest	it's because we can't use it Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:05 pm
dave Guest	Quote > > Paul, we don't have, nor do we want to install the .NET framework. > I've been getting that a lot lately. You asked if anyone would be interested in a .NET version of gym2mid, everyone said no, but you did it anyway. I'm just mortified that I won't be able to see future versions of vgm2mid, but if you are really wanting to learn .NET then I guess I'll just have to get used to the idea :(

Heliophobe Site Admin Joined: 25 Oct 1999 Posts: 2029 Location: Monterey, California	can't or.. won't? Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2002 9:10 pm
	I do have my own objections to installing it, but they mostly stem from superstitious fears rather than anything concrete. There's also the 24 or so megs to download, and no overwhelming need for it (I'd download vgm2mid if I could, but I don't really need it). What's keeping the rest of you from installing it? I wouldn't be surprised if a couple of people here are still using Win95, which .NET ostensibly doesn't support (not sure about NT), but what other problems are there?

unfnknblvbl Joined: 12 Jul 1999 Posts: 891	Re: can't or.. won't? Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2002 4:35 pm
unfnknblvbl Joined: 12 Jul 1999 Posts: 891	Quote > I do have my own objections to installing it, but they mostly stem from superstitious fears rather than anything concrete. There's also the 24 or so megs to download, and no overwhelming need for it (I'd download vgm2mid if I could, but I don't really need it). > What's keeping the rest of you from installing it? I wouldn't be surprised if a couple of people here are still using Win95, which .NET ostensibly doesn't support (not sure about NT), but what other problems are there? The huge bastard of a download to use one tiny program.. Maybe when Magazines start distributing it on cover CDs, I'll use it, but probably not untill then. Unless it's part of Windows XP already...

Paul Jensen Joined: 29 Jun 1999 Posts: 254 Location: California, USA; Hiroshima, Japan	[OT?] Re: GYM2VGM (should I post future vgm2mid updates in Development?) Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2002 9:34 pm
	Quote > > The next beta will include support for converting .GYM files to .VGM and .VGZ files, and hopefully support for not only reading, but also writing GD3 tags. > I already added full GYM to VGM support including PCM data redistribution to VGMTool, which already has full GD3 support. I also fixed up the Unicode stuff a bit, it seems to work now. I just need to sort out a few things and release it... Well actually, I just want to see if I can do it. Ever since I read the little note in Genecyst's readme (ah, nostalgia...) about YM2612 logging, I had always wondered if it could be done. Not that it's brain surgery or anything (I wonder if brain surgeons think that what they do is easy!). vgm2mid -- and gym2mid before it -- was created because I wanted to hear what music from Genesis and Mega Drive games would sound like using 'real' instruments. vgm2mid makes that possible. Everything else is optional. vgm2mid does its job, VGMTool does its job. VGMTool is a fantastic program, and it may be a complete waste of time for me to add features to vgm2mid that already are provided by VGMTool. But no matter whether or not it is a waste of time, adding a feature to my own program is still a great coding exercise. In all reality, there is not much more I can add to vgm2mid. I have some plans for things like MIDI format 1 support and other interface ideas, but there's not a whole lot more I can add to the program. The core of what the program does has not changed in a long time. vgm2mid could be a console-based program and still get the job done. I could learn ANSI C and port it to DOS so that more people could run it or use the source. No, I do not have to use .NET to get the job done, but it's a hell of a lot easier to use than what I had been using. The .NET framework is a huge download. I lease a DSL, so downloading 24 MB is not a problem. I understand what a pain it would be for UK dial-up users, who (as far as I understand) pay a per-minute charge for access, to download such a large file. Hopefully some really popular CD-based program will be redesigned using .NET, and penetration (ouch!) will increase to a point at which most people will already have the .NET runtimes installed. I'm sorry to those who want to try the new version, but can't (or, as seems common, _won't_) use .NET, but unless I get the motivation to do so, there will most likely not be an update of the VB5 version. The good news is that, as I've said, the new version still has the same basic function: converting VGMs to MIDI files. vgm2mid version 0.5 does everything that the .NET version does. Actually, at this point, it does even more. So nobody's missing anything at this point. Whew! I didn't think I was going to type so much!

unfnknblvbl Joined: 12 Jul 1999 Posts: 891	I bit.... Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2002 3:04 pm
unfnknblvbl Joined: 12 Jul 1999 Posts: 891	Quote > http://www.emulationzone.org/projects/gym2mid/vgm2mid/beta/ > Paul, we don't have, nor do we want to install the .NET framework. > Did you add new functionality to this version?? > :((( It takes a little while to load, but it converts rather quickly, whch is nice... but a notification that it's done would be appreciated. Can you compile it so it doesn't need the .NET framework?

Paul Jensen Joined: 29 Jun 1999 Posts: 254 Location: California, USA; Hiroshima, Japan	Re: I bit.... Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2002 6:45 am
	Quote > It takes a little while to load, but it converts rather quickly, whch is nice... but a notification that it's done would be appreciated. The UI needs eome work. I will definitely include a status indicator in a future release. The interface will probably see other changes as well. Quote > Can you compile it so it doesn't need the .NET framework? Unfortunately not. Instead of linking to header files like in C and compiling them as part of the executable (am I correct about this?), .NET compiles all references to classes in the framework as external calls (AFAIK). So as VBRUN DLLs are required for programs written in VB, the DLLs from the framework are required for programs that use .NET classes, one of which is a class which contains all the functions of VB. And (again) AFAIK, the individual DLLs (as in: the VB 7 runtime) cannot be installed without the framework as a whole. It might be a ploy by MS, but who knows?

unfnknblvbl Joined: 12 Jul 1999 Posts: 891	one thing I really don't like about this version... Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2002 2:16 pm
unfnknblvbl Joined: 12 Jul 1999 Posts: 891	Does it really need to take up that much memory? My poor old P133 would have had a heart attack if something other than Explorer or IE used that much RAM...

Paul Jensen Joined: 29 Jun 1999 Posts: 254 Location: California, USA; Hiroshima, Japan	It shouldn't have to, but unfortunately it does. Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2002 11:42 pm
	Quote > > Does it really need to take up that much memory? > My poor old P133 would have had a heart attack if something other than Explorer or IE used that much RAM... Probably so. I guess it's because of the size of the CLR (the bulk of the 24+ MB .NET framework), and I may be able to decrease that if I can eliminate some unnecessary references. That is, if VB7 is anything like previous versions of VB, there are probably references to libraries the program will not be using. Keep in mind, also, that the current build stores all files in RAM once they are added to the conversion list. So if you add 10 - 4MB GYM files to the list, vgm2mid will need 40MB of RAM (plus the base amount) to store all the files. This is not a good thing, and I've modified my current working build to load and then unload files one by one as they are converted.

dave Guest	Won't Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2002 8:09 pm
dave Guest	Quote > I do have my own objections to installing it, but they mostly stem from superstitious fears rather than anything concrete. There's also the 24 or so megs to download, and no overwhelming need for it (I'd download vgm2mid if I could, but I don't really need it). > What's keeping the rest of you from installing it? I wouldn't be surprised if a couple of people here are still using Win95, which .NET ostensibly doesn't support (not sure about NT), but what other problems are there? I think it's crazy, 25Meg of download and what was it, 17 Meg runtime ram usage for something which takes a 10k-ish VGM file and turns it into a 10k-ish MIDI file. Given the impact on a computer, it's really not worth it. Just because Microsoft have lost all perspective, doesn't mean we have to follow. If every programmer out there is going to start programming along the same lines, taking up 17 Megabytes of RAM instead of 17 Kilobytes of ram, and telling everyone they must upgrade, imagine what all our programs will be like in a couple of years. Weird thing was I thought emulation was the other end of the spectrum, where people went to far the other way (e.g. Steve Snake coding ZIP support from scratch in assembler!) Anyway, let's all not get crazy now.

Heliophobe Site Admin Joined: 25 Oct 1999 Posts: 2029 Location: Monterey, California	Re: Won't Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2002 10:46 pm
	Quote > I think it's crazy, 25Meg of download and what was it, 17 Meg runtime ram usage for something which takes a 10k-ish VGM file and turns it into a 10k-ish MIDI file. > Given the impact on a computer, it's really not worth it. Now, that's not quite fair. The 25 meg download is not specifically for VGM2MID - Paul's point is that it's more of a Windows upgrade. You could argue that it's absurd to require an 80+ megabyte operating system to run a small application like this, when it could be done on a 256kb 8086 with dos 3.0. Windows is accepted as a standard, not because it's advanced operating system features are required for the task, but because it's fairly ubiquitous, and writing for that environment allows windows features to be made available, like the familiar windows GUI, clipboard features (dunno if vgm2mid uses it), etc. .NET is intended to be as ubiquitous as the old VB runtimes, and at least it doesn't cost anything extra(connection fees aside). The 17 meg ram usage thing does seem excessive - though I suspect it's a flat memory cost for all .NET applications as opposed to taking that much per instance. Quote > Anyway, let's all not get crazy now. Naw, it's just for the purpose of debate - I also don't want to install .NET, and nothing's compelled me to do so yet. But the concept of it doesn't bother me so much - I'm just afraid of doing anything else to my shaky, crumbly Windows 98 installation. It's been there three years and it's clearly on its last legs.

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