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I dunno why I like that game so much! Honestly, I think I like the feel of the game, you know? The gameplay isn't perfect (Most games from '88 Aren't perfect anyway), but I like the graphics and the concept behind it. It reminds me of an upgraded Genpei Tomaden (Samurai Ghost), without the overhead-mode and big-mode. It's like an adventure into the unknown when you first play it. But anyway this message is a reply down below and a bit of a request. First, the reply.

When I said hand drawn, I meant hand-drawn by myself. Not litterly "hand-drawn" like scanned but done with the mouse free hand. I don't want to send them because I'm still working on them. What I'm dying to do is create music for it but I can't because not a single SMS emulator supports PSG channel selection (Cept for Meka but I'm not a registered user). That way I could zone in on each track and create arranged and remixed songs from that. I don't even really have a story to it because I don't even know what in the hell is going on in the real game. And this is where I come to the second part of this message...

Does anybody have an instruction manual or information behind Kenseiden or know if it's strictly a video game story or japanese mythology. Supposedly, Genpei (Samurai Ghost), is based on a real Japanese myth. Kind of like how the Greeks have Zeuz, Hermes, Hercules and the rest. The leader to a samurai clan was slain and sent to hell but an old spiritualist (an old woman I think) redeems his spirit from hell and pulls him back to the neitherworld (between real world and hell). She tells him that if he ventures through the japanese spirit realm of the neitherworld and kills this guy (I forgot his name), that he will get revenge and his soul and body will be brought back to life. The irony here is that the guy from Kenseiden seems to be a samurai and there's all these weird monsters and it takes place in ancient japan.

Chris :o)

Genpei tomaden means something like : "the gengii & heike clan" (from namco's point of view anyway, don't know if it's the exact translation though... my friend nalfing could know). The samurai guy was (yoritomo) was killed by the badass dude from the heike clan (or is it the other?), anyway supposedly namco payed for a live action film about this game and I have yet to confirm this rumor... About kenseiden : for me, japanese themed games was (and still is) my favorite style for games (and movies!!!). And my reason is simple : they got everything! style, action, great stories ect... any of you guys got to see at the movies recently "Princess Mononoki" or "X"? Kenseiden2 (tentitive title of course!) Is a project that was stiring in my head for something like 8-10 years or so. Now that i'm determined to do something about it i'll first check what does "kenseiden" actually means, therefor finding an appropriate name for it. I can too much see a remake of it with sprites designed by a real (or no so real) manga artist, japanese flavor midi's & with real japanese samples! (just to make sure that the samples I choose don't mean something like : "meet me at the kitchen"... Not because a phrase sounds good in japanese (doesn't they ALL sound good?) that it means something usefull... Are "homemade" games easyer to write than emulators? No one wants to do a alex kidd or a phantasy star (with openGL dungeons) remake? ;)

Okay, one of the things that has been bothering me for sometime is that I never had any idea what the 'Kenseiden' means.
Is it the hero's name?
Is it the evil boss's name?
Is it just a title? And what does it mean?

And web searches haven't been helpful, I just kept finding pages with Kenseiden cheat codes, reviews, or people just listing their carts.
And lots of 'epinions' pages. Some guy is using 'kenseiden' as his epinions user name. Go figure. HE likes moutain biking.

And then I remembered something.

I HAVE A KANJI DICTIONARY.

..and a vague, vague knowledge of how the japanese written language is structured.

I took it out and looked up the Kanji in the title screen... which is a damned difficult thing to do, since the characters are so stylized and old fashioned that they defy the usual methods of counting strokes to look up characters (my dictionary lists about 3500 symbols, and is 4 inches thick). But it helps if you know what the syllables of the symbols are (three symbols, three syllables, so it's pretty easy to break down: "Ken Sei Den").
So about twenty minutes, I think I have a working translation:

"Legend of the Holy Sword"
So our hero remains anonymous... unless he's such a pompous ass that he calls himself 'Legend of the Holy Sword'. A living legend (living until a boulder knocks him off the bridge again.)

Here's how I arrived at that:

First kanji:
KEN
(kun: 'tsurigi', meaning sword)
SKIP #1672
BASE MEANING: SWORD
Nearly every compound with this kanji has something to do with swords (juuken : bayonet, shuriken - throwing knife), and of course the native japanese (kun) reading means 'sword'. So that's a nobrainer.

Next kanji:
SEI
(kun: 'hiriji', saint, master, emperor)
SKIP #2830
BASE MEANING: HOLY - SAINT
This one's a little harder to make a call on. Most compounds seem to have to do with holyness ('seisho'- bible, 'seika' holy fire), and in fact is used to mean 'saint' ('sei petero' - saint peter). however, some uses SEI as in 'emperor' or 'great master'. I suppose it's sort of a cultural/historical thing to equate the emperor with divinity.
I'll go with 'holy'. We could say 'sacred' too I guess.

Last Kanji:
DEN:
(kun:'tsuta(waru)', 'tsuta(eru)' - convey, transmit pass on, that sort of thing)
SKIP #44
at first I thought the translation would come out more like 'Messenger of the Holy Sword' or something, but I see that when used as a suffix it often means 'Legend of' or 'Story of'. (Densetsu also means 'Legend'). I'm fairly confident with that translation, but a japanese speaker might interpret it differently for reason's I'll never guess.

So there you have it. BTW the 'SKIP #' thing is my dictionary;'s (NTC's New Japanese-English Character Dictionary) method of enumarting kanji. I don't know if it's proprietary to this dictionary or some accepted standard, but I hope it's useful.

Chris, you might find it interesting that 'Genpei Toumaden' doesn't mean 'Samurai Ghost'.

I won't give the full breakdown, but I used the Kanji in the intro sequence of the arcade version of Genpei Toumaden to get a translation... and that was much more difficult that Kenseiden's, Not only were the characters stylized, they were also extremely pixelated.

Genpei (two characters) has it's own speicial entry: "Genji and Heike clans; two opposing houses" (it uses one kanji from 'genji' and one from 'heike'). I seem to recall these were feuding clans, so I guess that's part of the historical legend that Genpei Toumaden delves into.

I couldn't find a compound with 'touma' so it's probably another one of those compunds on the fly that the japanese love so much.
TOU (to with a long o)
(KUN: 'u(tsu)' kill with sword or spear)
SKIP #1456
BASE MEANING: Study, Supress by armed force
Interesting pair of base meanings.
I think a few compounds that have to do with investigation, but mostly it's things like 'tsuitou' (hunt down and kill), 'touhi' (supression of bandits) 'toubaku' (attack the shogunate), 'toubatsu' (supress a revolution). Used as a prefix, it often means to supress or attack something.

MA
(KUN: none listen)
SKIP #3187
BASE MEANING: DEMON
There's two ways it's commony used in compounds: meaning evil or demonic) as in; 'majin' (devil, evil spirit) 'mamono' (goblin) 'akuma' (devil): or magic, 'majutsu' (sorcery), 'majo' (witch), 'mateki' (magic flute (The Magic Flute by Mozart)). Take your pick.

And DEN is the same DEN as above. So I'll let you puzzle that out.

I just played a bit of Genpei Toumaden... interesting, there are a lot of elements in common (fire wheel skulls, the folding eye, flying flame skulls, ghost flames)... I suppose a good book on japanese mythology would turn up some interesting parallels.

OF course there's also a lot of things in there that one would expect to find in medievil japan: tori gates, bamboo gardens, and those neat drinking gourds (I keep trying to pick them up in toumaden, damn them).

Beyond that there's a similar theme, that sort of perpetual twilight, the music puts me in the same sort of mood. The map of japanese provinces. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if sega intentionally 'borrowed' from toumaden somewhat.

But I have to say Kenseiden is far and away the better game. Toumaden feels so unfinished, and it tries to do too many things but really doesn't excel at any of them.

I fear any private attempts at a Kenseiden sequel, because I really don't want it to suck, but I might be surprised.

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> Genpei tomaden means something like : "the gengii & heike clan" (from namco's point of view anyway, don't know if it's the exact translation though... my friend nalfing could know). The samurai guy was (yoritomo) was killed by the badass dude from the heike clan (or is it the other?), anyway supposedly namco payed for a live action film about this game and I have yet to confirm this rumor...

I believe this rumor is true! Not because I have a hunch but because there's this weird ass film clip in the Namco Collection Volume 4 CD. Most people won't be able to find it either. You have to go into the theater, walk to the balcony, select the Namco Collection tab, and you'll see two films: one is the intro usual 3D intro to the Namco Collection and the other is a real-life film! You don't see all the characters but you do see yorimoto (an actor is playing as him) running fast as shit through shrubery and stuff. You'll see the giant dragon that waves around and lots of Japanese wording flashing around too. There's some of Manga-style cartoonish sequences in that clip as well. I don't know what to make of it because it seems a bit low quality. I guess because it's either from the '80s or Namco had a really low budget back then. Throughout the clip you'll hear the in-game music but it's not like the video game. It's real live instruments and stuff. You'll hear Kotos, Shakhchi (I dunno if that's spelled right), etc. What I also can't decide is whether this clip is from the movie, some type of television special.

Chris :o)

Good job man! So at least we have a rough idea of what the title means. "Legend of the Holy Sword" or "Messager of the Holy Sword". I dunno why I like the second title so much...I guess it's cause so many games use Legend instead of Messager. Mabye we'll have better luck with the search with those words instead of Kenseiden. Oh yeah, you were saying the Sei means great, grand master, holy, etc. Is that where they get "Sen Sei" from?

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> I just played a bit of Genpei Toumaden... interesting, there are a lot of elements in common (fire wheel skulls, the folding eye, flying flame skulls, ghost flames)... I suppose a good book on japanese mythology would turn up some interesting parallels.

Exactly.

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> OF course there's also a lot of things in there that one would expect to find in medievil japan: tori gates, bamboo gardens, and those neat drinking gourds (I keep trying to pick them up in toumaden, damn them).

> Beyond that there's a similar theme, that sort of perpetual twilight, the music puts me in the same sort of mood. The map of japanese provinces. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if sega intentionally 'borrowed' from toumaden somewhat.

Hell, Sega's borrowed a lot of shit from others...Incuding ideas from other arcade games and lots of NES game. Yeah, get pissed, throw tomatoes, it's the truth. Back in 1983-85, Ni****do made a bunch of tiny games with the name Ni****do in front of them. Like Ni****do Volleyball, Ni****do Tennis, etc. Great Volleyball looks and works exactly like Ni****do Volleyball as with Great Tennis and Ni****do Tennis. Yet the Sega versions were released in 1986. I assume those two clashed around 1987 or so because suddenly Sega stopped making exact clone games like that. Hence, Great Baseball (Wasn't like Ni****do Baseball), Great Golf (Wasn't like Ni****do Golf), and Great Basketball (Wasn't like Ni****do Basketball).

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> But I have to say Kenseiden is far and away the better game. Toumaden feels so unfinished, and it tries to do too many things but really doesn't excel at any of them.

Exactly. Toumaden could've been such a really cool game but there's too much other shit going on. There's many times where I get confused and plain pissed because there's so much weird shit going on. It's almost like a weed smoker's delight :o)

Here's what wrong in my opinion. Overhead view is bad! Overhead view sucks so much! And the way you die in overhead sucks too! If you open the wrong random chest you automatically die! Man, if I were in the arcades and that happend to me, I would be punching the screen, kicking the fucking change thingie, arrgghh! Side view is nice but the jumping and running isn't right. Same thing with Big Mode. He moves all lanky and looks fake. There's so many bugs in that game. I guess it's cause it's from '86.

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> I fear any private attempts at a Kenseiden sequel, because I really don't want it to suck, but I might be surprised.

If I just knew what in the hell was going on in the game I could make a really good sequel. One that matches the story, looks descent, and has really moody music.

Chris :o)

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> Genpei tomaden means something like : "the gengii & heike clan" (from namco's point of view anyway, don't know if it's the exact translation though... my friend nalfing could know).

I do wish we had some japanese speakers (or at least people who know more about the language than me) still posting on S8-Dev. Haven't seen here Naflign in a while.. or Nyef for that matter.

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> The samurai guy was (yoritomo) was killed by the badass dude from the heike clan (or is it the other?), anyway supposedly namco payed for a live action film about this game and I have yet to confirm this rumor...

> About kenseiden : for me, japanese themed games was (and still is) my favorite style for games (and movies!!!).

Another one of those very japanese games(with so-so gameplay but such wonderful ambience and music that makes me overlook the former) is Mystic Defender for Genesis. Ever play that one? Not so 'feudal' in style but lovely nonetheless.

I noticed, on further playing, that Genpei has a very similar spike stick wielding monk boss (a la kenseiden on the southern island stage), and a floating lute-playing bard, as in Spellcaster (Mystic Defender prequel, I've heard).

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> And my reason is simple : they got everything! style, action, great stories ect... any of you guys got to see at the movies recently "Princess Mononoki" or "X"?

Missed 'em both. Mononoke, I've heard, lacks a bit in plot. I don't know if that's true, some people who say that just don't pick up on some plot types, but even then, hell, it's like gameplay: if the plot's mediocre, but everything else is fantastic, well, I'm game!

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> Kenseiden2 (tentitive title of course!) Is a project that was stiring in my head for something like 8-10 years or so. Now that i'm determined to do something about it i'll first check what does "kenseiden" actually means, therefor finding an appropriate name for it.

I've got -some- idea, as mentioned above.

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> I can too much see a remake of it with sprites designed by a real (or no so real) manga artist,

um, well, yes, do you have one on retainer?

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> japanese flavor midi's & with real japanese samples! (just to make sure that the samples I choose don't mean something like : "meet me at the kitchen"... Not because a phrase sounds good in japanese (doesn't they ALL sound good?)

No!
But um... I'd really say an all instrumental soundtrack is better. Please don't just go throwing samples in the music, whatever they may say, it'd sound cheesy and just kill the mood.

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> that it means something usefull... Are "homemade" games easyer to write than emulators? No one wants to do a alex kidd or a phantasy star (with openGL dungeons) remake? ;)

Well, Alex Kidd and Phantasy Star both had scads of sequels, whereas Kenseiden was a one-hit wonder.

Homemade games... well, you see, the thing about writing emulators, they're very very difficult from the programmer's perscpeticve, however, that's all you really have to worry about: programming. A programmer can write the whole emulator himself, and manage all that's going into it, because you don't need artists, musicians, designers, etc.
It's a purely technical endevour.
Writing games can be easier or harder, depending on how involved you get. First thing, the actually programming for a game like Kenseiden (2, whatever) is really just a piece of the puzzle. You need artists, sound people, level designers, and of course, someone to manage all that. Chances are everyone involve has their own vision, and it's likely to clash when it all goes into the pot. This is doubly true if everyone involved is working ona volunteer basis, and thus doesn't feel obligated to stick to the designer's plan, since nobody's (likely to be) getting paid.
If the project's small enough that you can do it all yourself, you can be a one man band, but anything Kenseiden really needs a team of people working on it.
Of course, then there's the subtle points of game design: it's really not as easy as it seems. You can hurl everything that seems cool into the pot and hope you get a cool game, but chances are you'll get something so disoriented and disorganized it'll be abeast to play. Or you'll have a game that really looks like it ought to be fun, but lacks that certain 'je ne sais quoi', as us americans say (heheh. probably spelled it wrong too) that sets it apart from dull mediocrity.

It's a technical and creative venture. How much of each depends on what you get involved in.

When I wrote tetracycline (well hell, I'm still writing it), it was a mostly technical project: there wasn't any game design involved, I simply copped a well established favorite. I threw in a bit of graphics and animation, nothing even a non-artist like myself couldn't hack our with a cheesy 2-bit paint program (okay, I used photoshop 5.5, but a cheesy 2 bit paint program would have doon as good). I knew how it should feel from the get go, so it was just a matter of figuring out how to implement it.
And getting used to Z80 assembler and the SMS hardware, now that was a chore.

Martin Konrad's snake game is like that too. There was a bit more creativity involved with level design, but it's still close to as basic as you can get, design wise.

I don't mean to discourage you, but well.. you asked.

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> Good job man! So at least we have a rough idea of what the title means. "Legend of the Holy Sword" or "Messager of the Holy Sword". I dunno why I like the second title so much...I guess it's cause so many games use Legend instead of Messager.

True.
Given more thought, Messenger + Holy might be something like 'Crusader'. 'Crusader Sword'? I do have a friend who majored in japanese, I should try to get his opinion on it.

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> Mabye we'll have better luck with the search with those words instead of Kenseiden. Oh yeah, you were saying the Sei means great, grand master, holy, etc. Is that where they get "Sen Sei" from?

The tricky thing is, the way the japanese language works, they tend to build compounds out of multiple symbols with various basic meanings.. each symbol can have multiple readings (that is, ways to be pronounced), and here's the kicker:

For any given syllable, there can be 30, 50 or more different COMPLETELY UNRELATED Kanji. I look up 'SEI' and I see about 50 symbols. And they all have different meanings, and each meaning can be strung together with other kanji to form an 'idea' with it's own name. Or it can be used on it's own to represent a full (multisyllable) native japanese word.
So, 'KenSeiDen' is not three words that mean 'Sword Holy Legend', rather, it's three 'ideas' globbed together to make a new word.

To add to the confusion, there's really only a very small number of syllables in the japanese language (most of them are a consonant plus a vowel, or a freestanding vowel, or 'n', the only freestanding consonant). And they attach so many meanings to each one.

No wonder japanese students are said to have a crazy work ethic: they have to study like mad just to be literate in their own language.
Christ.

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>
> > I just played a bit of Genpei Toumaden... interesting, there are a lot of elements in common (fire wheel skulls, the folding eye, flying flame skulls, ghost flames)... I suppose a good book on japanese mythology would turn up some interesting parallels.

> Exactly.

so.. GET TO IT.

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> Hell, Sega's borrowed a lot of shit from others...Incuding ideas from other arcade games and lots of NES game. Yeah, get pissed, throw tomatoes, it's the truth. Back in 1983-85, Ni****do made a bunch of tiny games with the name Ni****do in front of them. Like Ni****do Volleyball, Ni****do Tennis, etc. Great Volleyball looks and works exactly like Ni****do Volleyball as with Great Tennis and Ni****do Tennis. Yet the Sega versions were released in 1986.

I thought they were release in 85 in japan first...
The sega 'Great' sports games were generally pretty shoddy anyway, 'borrowed' or not. (but then I hate sports games in general).

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> Exactly. Toumaden could've been such a really cool game but there's too much other shit going on. There's many times where I get confused and plain pissed because there's so much weird shit going on. It's almost like a weed smoker's delight :o)

Beyond that... the control is very unpolished, the level design seems like it was barely playtested... I'd chalk up more of it to that subtle lack of 'good game design' than having too much going on.

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> Here's what wrong in my opinion. Overhead view is bad! Overhead view sucks so much! And the way you die in overhead sucks too! If you open the wrong random chest you automatically die! Man, if I were in the arcades and that happend to me, I would be punching the screen, kicking the fucking change thingie, arrgghh!

I got kicked out of arcade for hitting a street fighter 2 machine. On my 13th birthday.

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> Side view is nice but the jumping and running isn't right. Same thing with Big Mode. He moves all lanky and looks fake. There's so many bugs in that game. I guess it's cause it's from '86.

The bugs comes from poor testing, most likely. I think it was rushed out the door.
And the jerky movement...well, I think they wanted to do more than they could do with the hardware available to them. The animation in the close up sections reminds me of a Genesis/Sega CD game... that I can't remember the name of... But it was one of those games where the main characater is composed of many individual jointed sprites which were supposed to make the movement look smoother but just made the hero look creepy.

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> If I just knew what in the hell was going on in the game I could make a really good sequel. One that matches the story, looks descent, and has really moody music.

See my design rant in the Crusty Hamster follow up...

My friend concurrs with my translation. The 'DEN' suffix (with that kanji) just about always means Legend/Story of in the context of a title (Ninja Gaiden being another example he cited, Story of a Ninja in a Foreign land... "...kind of"). So you can keep an eye out for that in japanese titles. He thought 'sacred' would be another good word for 'SEI'

I'd say a working translation that sounds pretty good is:

"Legend of the Sacred Sword"

Tell the world! Tell the whole world! Scream it from the balconies!

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> "Legend of the Sacred Sword"

Damn, that sounds nice. It even has a ring to it :o)

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> Tell the world! Tell the whole world! Scream it from the balconies!

LEGEND OF THE SACRED SWORD!!!

Chris :o)

Author	Message
Consolemu Guest	More on Kenseiden... Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2000 1:40 am
Consolemu Guest	I dunno why I like that game so much! Honestly, I think I like the feel of the game, you know? The gameplay isn't perfect (Most games from '88 Aren't perfect anyway), but I like the graphics and the concept behind it. It reminds me of an upgraded Genpei Tomaden (Samurai Ghost), without the overhead-mode and big-mode. It's like an adventure into the unknown when you first play it. But anyway this message is a reply down below and a bit of a request. First, the reply. When I said hand drawn, I meant hand-drawn by myself. Not litterly "hand-drawn" like scanned but done with the mouse free hand. I don't want to send them because I'm still working on them. What I'm dying to do is create music for it but I can't because not a single SMS emulator supports PSG channel selection (Cept for Meka but I'm not a registered user). That way I could zone in on each track and create arranged and remixed songs from that. I don't even really have a story to it because I don't even know what in the hell is going on in the real game. And this is where I come to the second part of this message... Does anybody have an instruction manual or information behind Kenseiden or know if it's strictly a video game story or japanese mythology. Supposedly, Genpei (Samurai Ghost), is based on a real Japanese myth. Kind of like how the Greeks have Zeuz, Hermes, Hercules and the rest. The leader to a samurai clan was slain and sent to hell but an old spiritualist (an old woman I think) redeems his spirit from hell and pulls him back to the neitherworld (between real world and hell). She tells him that if he ventures through the japanese spirit realm of the neitherworld and kills this guy (I forgot his name), that he will get revenge and his soul and body will be brought back to life. The irony here is that the guy from Kenseiden seems to be a samurai and there's all these weird monsters and it takes place in ancient japan. Chris :o)

Le hamster croustillant Joined: 03 Sep 2007 Posts: 352 Location: Canada	Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2000 5:04 am
	Genpei tomaden means something like : "the gengii & heike clan" (from namco's point of view anyway, don't know if it's the exact translation though... my friend nalfing could know). The samurai guy was (yoritomo) was killed by the badass dude from the heike clan (or is it the other?), anyway supposedly namco payed for a live action film about this game and I have yet to confirm this rumor... About kenseiden : for me, japanese themed games was (and still is) my favorite style for games (and movies!!!). And my reason is simple : they got everything! style, action, great stories ect... any of you guys got to see at the movies recently "Princess Mononoki" or "X"? Kenseiden2 (tentitive title of course!) Is a project that was stiring in my head for something like 8-10 years or so. Now that i'm determined to do something about it i'll first check what does "kenseiden" actually means, therefor finding an appropriate name for it. I can too much see a remake of it with sprites designed by a real (or no so real) manga artist, japanese flavor midi's & with real japanese samples! (just to make sure that the samples I choose don't mean something like : "meet me at the kitchen"... Not because a phrase sounds good in japanese (doesn't they ALL sound good?) that it means something usefull... Are "homemade" games easyer to write than emulators? No one wants to do a alex kidd or a phantasy star (with openGL dungeons) remake? ;)

Heliophobe Site Admin Joined: 25 Oct 1999 Posts: 2029 Location: Monterey, California	Even more on Kenseiden. Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2000 6:51 am
	Okay, one of the things that has been bothering me for sometime is that I never had any idea what the 'Kenseiden' means. Is it the hero's name? Is it the evil boss's name? Is it just a title? And what does it mean? And web searches haven't been helpful, I just kept finding pages with Kenseiden cheat codes, reviews, or people just listing their carts. And lots of 'epinions' pages. Some guy is using 'kenseiden' as his epinions user name. Go figure. HE likes moutain biking. And then I remembered something. I HAVE A KANJI DICTIONARY. ..and a vague, vague knowledge of how the japanese written language is structured. I took it out and looked up the Kanji in the title screen... which is a damned difficult thing to do, since the characters are so stylized and old fashioned that they defy the usual methods of counting strokes to look up characters (my dictionary lists about 3500 symbols, and is 4 inches thick). But it helps if you know what the syllables of the symbols are (three symbols, three syllables, so it's pretty easy to break down: "Ken Sei Den"). So about twenty minutes, I think I have a working translation: "Legend of the Holy Sword" So our hero remains anonymous... unless he's such a pompous ass that he calls himself 'Legend of the Holy Sword'. A living legend (living until a boulder knocks him off the bridge again.) Here's how I arrived at that: First kanji: KEN (kun: 'tsurigi', meaning sword) SKIP #1672 BASE MEANING: SWORD Nearly every compound with this kanji has something to do with swords (juuken : bayonet, shuriken - throwing knife), and of course the native japanese (kun) reading means 'sword'. So that's a nobrainer. Next kanji: SEI (kun: 'hiriji', saint, master, emperor) SKIP #2830 BASE MEANING: HOLY - SAINT This one's a little harder to make a call on. Most compounds seem to have to do with holyness ('seisho'- bible, 'seika' holy fire), and in fact is used to mean 'saint' ('sei petero' - saint peter). however, some uses SEI as in 'emperor' or 'great master'. I suppose it's sort of a cultural/historical thing to equate the emperor with divinity. I'll go with 'holy'. We could say 'sacred' too I guess. Last Kanji: DEN: (kun:'tsuta(waru)', 'tsuta(eru)' - convey, transmit pass on, that sort of thing) SKIP #44 at first I thought the translation would come out more like 'Messenger of the Holy Sword' or something, but I see that when used as a suffix it often means 'Legend of' or 'Story of'. (Densetsu also means 'Legend'). I'm fairly confident with that translation, but a japanese speaker might interpret it differently for reason's I'll never guess. So there you have it. BTW the 'SKIP #' thing is my dictionary;'s (NTC's New Japanese-English Character Dictionary) method of enumarting kanji. I don't know if it's proprietary to this dictionary or some accepted standard, but I hope it's useful. Chris, you might find it interesting that 'Genpei Toumaden' doesn't mean 'Samurai Ghost'. I won't give the full breakdown, but I used the Kanji in the intro sequence of the arcade version of Genpei Toumaden to get a translation... and that was much more difficult that Kenseiden's, Not only were the characters stylized, they were also extremely pixelated. Genpei (two characters) has it's own speicial entry: "Genji and Heike clans; two opposing houses" (it uses one kanji from 'genji' and one from 'heike'). I seem to recall these were feuding clans, so I guess that's part of the historical legend that Genpei Toumaden delves into. I couldn't find a compound with 'touma' so it's probably another one of those compunds on the fly that the japanese love so much. TOU (to with a long o) (KUN: 'u(tsu)' kill with sword or spear) SKIP #1456 BASE MEANING: Study, Supress by armed force Interesting pair of base meanings. I think a few compounds that have to do with investigation, but mostly it's things like 'tsuitou' (hunt down and kill), 'touhi' (supression of bandits) 'toubaku' (attack the shogunate), 'toubatsu' (supress a revolution). Used as a prefix, it often means to supress or attack something. MA (KUN: none listen) SKIP #3187 BASE MEANING: DEMON There's two ways it's commony used in compounds: meaning evil or demonic) as in; 'majin' (devil, evil spirit) 'mamono' (goblin) 'akuma' (devil): or magic, 'majutsu' (sorcery), 'majo' (witch), 'mateki' (magic flute (The Magic Flute by Mozart)). Take your pick. And DEN is the same DEN as above. So I'll let you puzzle that out. I just played a bit of Genpei Toumaden... interesting, there are a lot of elements in common (fire wheel skulls, the folding eye, flying flame skulls, ghost flames)... I suppose a good book on japanese mythology would turn up some interesting parallels. OF course there's also a lot of things in there that one would expect to find in medievil japan: tori gates, bamboo gardens, and those neat drinking gourds (I keep trying to pick them up in toumaden, damn them). Beyond that there's a similar theme, that sort of perpetual twilight, the music puts me in the same sort of mood. The map of japanese provinces. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if sega intentionally 'borrowed' from toumaden somewhat. But I have to say Kenseiden is far and away the better game. Toumaden feels so unfinished, and it tries to do too many things but really doesn't excel at any of them. I fear any private attempts at a Kenseiden sequel, because I really don't want it to suck, but I might be surprised.

Consolemu Guest	Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2000 1:23 pm
Consolemu Guest	Quote > Genpei tomaden means something like : "the gengii & heike clan" (from namco's point of view anyway, don't know if it's the exact translation though... my friend nalfing could know). The samurai guy was (yoritomo) was killed by the badass dude from the heike clan (or is it the other?), anyway supposedly namco payed for a live action film about this game and I have yet to confirm this rumor... I believe this rumor is true! Not because I have a hunch but because there's this weird ass film clip in the Namco Collection Volume 4 CD. Most people won't be able to find it either. You have to go into the theater, walk to the balcony, select the Namco Collection tab, and you'll see two films: one is the intro usual 3D intro to the Namco Collection and the other is a real-life film! You don't see all the characters but you do see yorimoto (an actor is playing as him) running fast as shit through shrubery and stuff. You'll see the giant dragon that waves around and lots of Japanese wording flashing around too. There's some of Manga-style cartoonish sequences in that clip as well. I don't know what to make of it because it seems a bit low quality. I guess because it's either from the '80s or Namco had a really low budget back then. Throughout the clip you'll hear the in-game music but it's not like the video game. It's real live instruments and stuff. You'll hear Kotos, Shakhchi (I dunno if that's spelled right), etc. What I also can't decide is whether this clip is from the movie, some type of television special. Chris :o)

Consolemu Guest	clapping hands Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2000 1:40 pm
Consolemu Guest	Good job man! So at least we have a rough idea of what the title means. "Legend of the Holy Sword" or "Messager of the Holy Sword". I dunno why I like the second title so much...I guess it's cause so many games use Legend instead of Messager. Mabye we'll have better luck with the search with those words instead of Kenseiden. Oh yeah, you were saying the Sei means great, grand master, holy, etc. Is that where they get "Sen Sei" from? Quote > I just played a bit of Genpei Toumaden... interesting, there are a lot of elements in common (fire wheel skulls, the folding eye, flying flame skulls, ghost flames)... I suppose a good book on japanese mythology would turn up some interesting parallels. Exactly. Quote > OF course there's also a lot of things in there that one would expect to find in medievil japan: tori gates, bamboo gardens, and those neat drinking gourds (I keep trying to pick them up in toumaden, damn them). > Beyond that there's a similar theme, that sort of perpetual twilight, the music puts me in the same sort of mood. The map of japanese provinces. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if sega intentionally 'borrowed' from toumaden somewhat. Hell, Sega's borrowed a lot of shit from others...Incuding ideas from other arcade games and lots of NES game. Yeah, get pissed, throw tomatoes, it's the truth. Back in 1983-85, Ni**do made a bunch of tiny games with the name Nido in front of them. Like Nido Volleyball, Nido Tennis, etc. Great Volleyball looks and works exactly like Nido Volleyball as with Great Tennis and Nido Tennis. Yet the Sega versions were released in 1986. I assume those two clashed around 1987 or so because suddenly Sega stopped making exact clone games like that. Hence, Great Baseball (Wasn't like Nido Baseball), Great Golf (Wasn't like Nido Golf), and Great Basketball (Wasn't like Ni**do Basketball). Quote > But I have to say Kenseiden is far and away the better game. Toumaden feels so unfinished, and it tries to do too many things but really doesn't excel at any of them. Exactly. Toumaden could've been such a really cool game but there's too much other shit going on. There's many times where I get confused and plain pissed because there's so much weird shit going on. It's almost like a weed smoker's delight :o) Here's what wrong in my opinion. Overhead view is bad! Overhead view sucks so much! And the way you die in overhead sucks too! If you open the wrong random chest you automatically die! Man, if I were in the arcades and that happend to me, I would be punching the screen, kicking the fucking change thingie, arrgghh! Side view is nice but the jumping and running isn't right. Same thing with Big Mode. He moves all lanky and looks fake. There's so many bugs in that game. I guess it's cause it's from '86. Quote > I fear any private attempts at a Kenseiden sequel, because I really don't want it to suck, but I might be surprised. If I just knew what in the hell was going on in the game I could make a really good sequel. One that matches the story, looks descent, and has really moody music. Chris :o)

Heliophobe Site Admin Joined: 25 Oct 1999 Posts: 2029 Location: Monterey, California	Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2000 7:31 pm
	Quote > Genpei tomaden means something like : "the gengii & heike clan" (from namco's point of view anyway, don't know if it's the exact translation though... my friend nalfing could know). I do wish we had some japanese speakers (or at least people who know more about the language than me) still posting on S8-Dev. Haven't seen here Naflign in a while.. or Nyef for that matter. Quote > The samurai guy was (yoritomo) was killed by the badass dude from the heike clan (or is it the other?), anyway supposedly namco payed for a live action film about this game and I have yet to confirm this rumor... > About kenseiden : for me, japanese themed games was (and still is) my favorite style for games (and movies!!!). Another one of those very japanese games(with so-so gameplay but such wonderful ambience and music that makes me overlook the former) is Mystic Defender for Genesis. Ever play that one? Not so 'feudal' in style but lovely nonetheless. I noticed, on further playing, that Genpei has a very similar spike stick wielding monk boss (a la kenseiden on the southern island stage), and a floating lute-playing bard, as in Spellcaster (Mystic Defender prequel, I've heard). Quote > And my reason is simple : they got everything! style, action, great stories ect... any of you guys got to see at the movies recently "Princess Mononoki" or "X"? Missed 'em both. Mononoke, I've heard, lacks a bit in plot. I don't know if that's true, some people who say that just don't pick up on some plot types, but even then, hell, it's like gameplay: if the plot's mediocre, but everything else is fantastic, well, I'm game! Quote > Kenseiden2 (tentitive title of course!) Is a project that was stiring in my head for something like 8-10 years or so. Now that i'm determined to do something about it i'll first check what does "kenseiden" actually means, therefor finding an appropriate name for it. I've got -some- idea, as mentioned above. Quote > I can too much see a remake of it with sprites designed by a real (or no so real) manga artist, um, well, yes, do you have one on retainer? Quote > japanese flavor midi's & with real japanese samples! (just to make sure that the samples I choose don't mean something like : "meet me at the kitchen"... Not because a phrase sounds good in japanese (doesn't they ALL sound good?) No! But um... I'd really say an all instrumental soundtrack is better. Please don't just go throwing samples in the music, whatever they may say, it'd sound cheesy and just kill the mood. Quote > that it means something usefull... Are "homemade" games easyer to write than emulators? No one wants to do a alex kidd or a phantasy star (with openGL dungeons) remake? ;) Well, Alex Kidd and Phantasy Star both had scads of sequels, whereas Kenseiden was a one-hit wonder. Homemade games... well, you see, the thing about writing emulators, they're very very difficult from the programmer's perscpeticve, however, that's all you really have to worry about: programming. A programmer can write the whole emulator himself, and manage all that's going into it, because you don't need artists, musicians, designers, etc. It's a purely technical endevour. Writing games can be easier or harder, depending on how involved you get. First thing, the actually programming for a game like Kenseiden (2, whatever) is really just a piece of the puzzle. You need artists, sound people, level designers, and of course, someone to manage all that. Chances are everyone involve has their own vision, and it's likely to clash when it all goes into the pot. This is doubly true if everyone involved is working ona volunteer basis, and thus doesn't feel obligated to stick to the designer's plan, since nobody's (likely to be) getting paid. If the project's small enough that you can do it all yourself, you can be a one man band, but anything Kenseiden really needs a team of people working on it. Of course, then there's the subtle points of game design: it's really not as easy as it seems. You can hurl everything that seems cool into the pot and hope you get a cool game, but chances are you'll get something so disoriented and disorganized it'll be abeast to play. Or you'll have a game that really looks like it ought to be fun, but lacks that certain 'je ne sais quoi', as us americans say (heheh. probably spelled it wrong too) that sets it apart from dull mediocrity. It's a technical and creative venture. How much of each depends on what you get involved in. When I wrote tetracycline (well hell, I'm still writing it), it was a mostly technical project: there wasn't any game design involved, I simply copped a well established favorite. I threw in a bit of graphics and animation, nothing even a non-artist like myself couldn't hack our with a cheesy 2-bit paint program (okay, I used photoshop 5.5, but a cheesy 2 bit paint program would have doon as good). I knew how it should feel from the get go, so it was just a matter of figuring out how to implement it. And getting used to Z80 assembler and the SMS hardware, now that was a chore. Martin Konrad's snake game is like that too. There was a bit more creativity involved with level design, but it's still close to as basic as you can get, design wise. I don't mean to discourage you, but well.. you asked.

Heliophobe Site Admin Joined: 25 Oct 1999 Posts: 2029 Location: Monterey, California	Re: clapping hands Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2000 7:56 pm
	Quote > Good job man! So at least we have a rough idea of what the title means. "Legend of the Holy Sword" or "Messager of the Holy Sword". I dunno why I like the second title so much...I guess it's cause so many games use Legend instead of Messager. True. Given more thought, Messenger + Holy might be something like 'Crusader'. 'Crusader Sword'? I do have a friend who majored in japanese, I should try to get his opinion on it. Quote > Mabye we'll have better luck with the search with those words instead of Kenseiden. Oh yeah, you were saying the Sei means great, grand master, holy, etc. Is that where they get "Sen Sei" from? The tricky thing is, the way the japanese language works, they tend to build compounds out of multiple symbols with various basic meanings.. each symbol can have multiple readings (that is, ways to be pronounced), and here's the kicker: For any given syllable, there can be 30, 50 or more different COMPLETELY UNRELATED Kanji. I look up 'SEI' and I see about 50 symbols. And they all have different meanings, and each meaning can be strung together with other kanji to form an 'idea' with it's own name. Or it can be used on it's own to represent a full (multisyllable) native japanese word. So, 'KenSeiDen' is not three words that mean 'Sword Holy Legend', rather, it's three 'ideas' globbed together to make a new word. To add to the confusion, there's really only a very small number of syllables in the japanese language (most of them are a consonant plus a vowel, or a freestanding vowel, or 'n', the only freestanding consonant). And they attach so many meanings to each one. No wonder japanese students are said to have a crazy work ethic: they have to study like mad just to be literate in their own language. Christ. Quote > > > I just played a bit of Genpei Toumaden... interesting, there are a lot of elements in common (fire wheel skulls, the folding eye, flying flame skulls, ghost flames)... I suppose a good book on japanese mythology would turn up some interesting parallels. > Exactly. so.. GET TO IT. Quote > Hell, Sega's borrowed a lot of shit from others...Incuding ideas from other arcade games and lots of NES game. Yeah, get pissed, throw tomatoes, it's the truth. Back in 1983-85, Ni**do made a bunch of tiny games with the name Nido in front of them. Like Nido Volleyball, Nido Tennis, etc. Great Volleyball looks and works exactly like Nido Volleyball as with Great Tennis and Ni**do Tennis. Yet the Sega versions were released in 1986. I thought they were release in 85 in japan first... The sega 'Great' sports games were generally pretty shoddy anyway, 'borrowed' or not. (but then I hate sports games in general). Quote > Exactly. Toumaden could've been such a really cool game but there's too much other shit going on. There's many times where I get confused and plain pissed because there's so much weird shit going on. It's almost like a weed smoker's delight :o) Beyond that... the control is very unpolished, the level design seems like it was barely playtested... I'd chalk up more of it to that subtle lack of 'good game design' than having too much going on. Quote > Here's what wrong in my opinion. Overhead view is bad! Overhead view sucks so much! And the way you die in overhead sucks too! If you open the wrong random chest you automatically die! Man, if I were in the arcades and that happend to me, I would be punching the screen, kicking the fucking change thingie, arrgghh! I got kicked out of arcade for hitting a street fighter 2 machine. On my 13th birthday. Quote > Side view is nice but the jumping and running isn't right. Same thing with Big Mode. He moves all lanky and looks fake. There's so many bugs in that game. I guess it's cause it's from '86. The bugs comes from poor testing, most likely. I think it was rushed out the door. And the jerky movement...well, I think they wanted to do more than they could do with the hardware available to them. The animation in the close up sections reminds me of a Genesis/Sega CD game... that I can't remember the name of... But it was one of those games where the main characater is composed of many individual jointed sprites which were supposed to make the movement look smoother but just made the hero look creepy. Quote > If I just knew what in the hell was going on in the game I could make a really good sequel. One that matches the story, looks descent, and has really moody music. See my design rant in the Crusty Hamster follow up...

Heliophobe Site Admin Joined: 25 Oct 1999 Posts: 2029 Location: Monterey, California	Kenseiden... working translation. Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2000 10:54 pm
	My friend concurrs with my translation. The 'DEN' suffix (with that kanji) just about always means Legend/Story of in the context of a title (Ninja Gaiden being another example he cited, Story of a Ninja in a Foreign land... "...kind of"). So you can keep an eye out for that in japanese titles. He thought 'sacred' would be another good word for 'SEI' I'd say a working translation that sounds pretty good is: "Legend of the Sacred Sword" Tell the world! Tell the whole world! Scream it from the balconies!

Consolemu Guest	Re: Kenseiden... working translation. Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2000 7:11 pm
Consolemu Guest	Quote > "Legend of the Sacred Sword" Damn, that sounds nice. It even has a ring to it :o) Quote > Tell the world! Tell the whole world! Scream it from the balconies! LEGEND OF THE SACRED SWORD!!! Chris :o)

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