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ichigobankai wrote

@cireza

Actually you can *easily* flip a sprites before uploading it in VRAM. Just a little LUT needed. It will take 2 times more cycles.

As the SMS can't flip by default these data, it can be a good choice to have both side different (like always have the sword or shield in the same hand) ;)

I suggested that at one point, even using a LUT for scaling objects down, but was roundly criticized for suggesting this. LUTs were powerful tools in the 1970s and 80s for so many machines that lacked floating point hardware to perform these tasks.

maxxoccupancy wrote

[...]That's 9,000 Z80 instructions per frame.

Wrong, that's 14 934 nops (or any 4 cycles instruction) @60fps... Stop using dumb numbers for anything please.

Better solution, remove completly the background.
Use 15 color for P1 (bkg pal) , 15 color for p2 (spr pal), and move the background (like a layer) to achieve 1px precision for P1

The render will be like Holosseum (Sega Arcade system 32)

Well, if you want to go really hardcore about 60fps without flickering, the way is to make the entire game's graphics rotated by 90 degrees. This way each character could be up to 8 sprite tiles tall and there would be no width limitations.

... hmm, except when one character jumps over each other. In this case there would still be flickering.

Anyway, these thought experiments are really fun. Now I'm looking into devkitSMS, maybe I'll eventually try something out.

guile_dance.gif (2.27 KB)

Not a very serious answer, obviously, but another solution would have been to make a fighting game in TATE mode with a greater focus on aerial combat :)

Sprites disappearing would be reduced to instances where one character is above/below the other, so definitely less frequent than when they are aligned and throwing fireballs at each other in normal display mode.

Yep, that's what I said.

Yet another unadviseable idea:
If the backgrounds were a solid color, it would be possible to use 8 times the normal amount of ROM to store every possible preshifted tiles; in this case, sprites would only be used when the tiles for one fighter would be overlapping the other.

mankrip wrote

Yep, that's what I said.

Indeed ! Well that's funny.

I didn't see your answer, I think the topic was open on the previous one when I answered, and we had the same idea in the end :)

If you set the game in a nightclub you could interleave the meta sprite display on alternate frames and say that it's a strobe light effect.

P.S. I would actually be seriously interested to see and play a vertical fighting game.. The idea reminds me of the parts in Gunstar Heroes where you are falling down a big shaft but carry on fighting the boss.

ichigobankai wrote

maxxoccupancy wrote

[...]That's 9,000 Z80 instructions per frame.

Wrong, that's 14 934 nops (or any 4 cycles instruction) @60fps... Stop using dumb numbers for anything please.

Better solution, remove completly the background.
Use 15 color for P1 (bkg pal) , 15 color for p2 (spr pal), and move the background (like a layer) to achieve 1px precision for P1

The render will be like Holosseum (Sega Arcade system 32)

Why are you being abusive? Official numbers from ZILOG are 510,000 instructions per second, which is just under 9,000 per frame at 60fps (about 3600 bytes of memory moves). If you disagree, post your own number. Don't tear into people.

willbritton wrote

If you set the game in a nightclub you could interleave the meta sprite display on alternate frames and say that it's a strobe light effect.

P.S. I would actually be seriously interested to see and play a vertical fighting game.. The idea reminds me of the parts in Gunstar Heroes where you are falling down a big shaft but carry on fighting the boss.

Overhead or isometric or "drone view." Isometric might sound far out, but it could put most of the sprites for the two characters on different scanlines even if they are right on each other.

And it wouldn't have to be isometric like Diablo or SimCity with a 30 degree angle. A 45 degree angle looking down from high up (60-75 degrees) would put the body of one character completely above the other. So both characters could be six sprites (48 pixels) wide, leaving a safe margin of two more sprites for punches and kicks before flickering becomes a risk (with nine on a horizontal line). Think of it as looking down on a fight from a third or fourth story window. You can still see what's going on in real time, and you actually get more room to move (320 pixels of move distance instead of 256, or effectively about 240 pixels between fighters instead of 180).

A high angle "drone view" isometric version of Street Fighter 2 (or a similar fight game) would make it easier to put move combos together due to the square shape of the control pad, though I'm sure that it would be tougher in emulation since many people are just using their keyboard.

maxxoccupancy wrote

Why are you being abusive? Official numbers from ZILOG are 510,000 instructions per second, which is just under 9,000 per frame at 60fps (about 3600 bytes of memory moves). If you disagree, post your own number. Don't tear into people.

One more time, your numbers are just copy/paste from nowhere.

Which Z80 frequency ?
What kind of instruction ?
You have ONLY 228 cycles per scanline and 262 lines...that's 59736 cycles per frame @60hz*, no more, no less.
That's fact.
Not imagination.

* equiv. to 896040 nops (which are 4 cycles "instructions") for 1 sec.

You are the archetype of sealioning people ;
Wasting precious people's time posting pile of shit.

Let’s stay civil and also stop saying dumb things. It’s not hard to learn, please don’t post if you haven’t learned enough to participate reasonably or suffer from an inability to be corrected.

Ah This is what i call "partial" moderation. My post with video about nederland fans was deleted. But @ichigo posted a direct offense verbal and of him not had deleted. post. Why? The forum criteria made me astonished. If Maxim´s friend or sympathizent no norms. The norms are here = general rule, there= no rule or what forum manager want.
BTW @ichigo is completely correct about supermaxx in everything said.

In my opinion, new games for retro consoles should be optimized for the widescreen displays used nowadays.
When it comes to a V.S. fighting game, this should be even more taken into consideration!

Since 4:3 displays aren't sold anymore, a game with anamorphic widescreen visuals would take advantage of current televisions (just because the Master System was released almost 40 years ago, it doesn't mean that its new games need to be necessarily bound to the aspect ratio of TVs from that time).

Furthermore, widescreen optimization results in a SIGNIFICANT reduction in the number of sprites required to create characters.
They will look "thin" horizontally (when viewed in the Master System's original 1:1 ratio), but will have the correct proportions when appearing in 16:9.

In other words, your game will fit today's TVs screens correctly (which is pretty cool!), no visual sacrifice/deformation will been made to how the characters looks, many sprites will be saved and flickering will decrease significantly.

DssGOPPWoAEYItp.jpeg (8.41 KB)

DssGO67WkAIIz7C.jpeg (13.71 KB)

If someone chooses to distort their classic game images by stretching them to fit modern screens, that's their business, but I think that it ruins the experience.

Making a pixelart game for classic consoles with only a single mode that caters to widescreen is a terrible idea.

Im so curious about the ichigo mapper. What it can do in matter of games? It will be useful more for fighting games or other genres?

macbee wrote

In my opinion, new games for retro consoles should be optimized for the widescreen displays used nowadays.
When it comes to a V.S. fighting game, this should be even more taken into consideration!

Since 4:3 displays aren't sold anymore, a game with anamorphic widescreen visuals would take advantage of current televisions (just because the Master System was released almost 40 years ago, it doesn't mean that its new games need to be necessarily bound to the aspect ratio of TVs from that time).

Furthermore, widescreen optimization results in a SIGNIFICANT reduction in the number of sprites required to create characters.
They will look "thin" horizontally (when viewed in the Master System's original 8:7 ratio), but will have the correct proportions when appearing in 16:9.

In other words, your game will fit today's TVs screens correctly (which is pretty cool!), no visual sacrifice/deformation will been made to how the characters looks, many sprites will be saved and flickering will decrease significantly.

The sprites are based on the snes sprites, which also stretches the screen, so aspect ratio is already taken into account.

Of course it still depends whether you play in 50hz or 60hz. Where 50hz is even more stretched.

ichigobankai wrote

maxxoccupancy wrote

Why are you being abusive? Official numbers from ZILOG are 510,000 instructions per second, which is just under 9,000 per frame at 60fps (about 3600 bytes of memory moves). If you disagree, post your own number. Don't tear into people.

One more time, your numbers are just copy/paste from nowhere.

Which Z80 frequency ?
What kind of instruction ?
You have ONLY 228 cycles per scanline and 262 lines...that's 59736 cycles per frame @60hz*, no more, no less.
That's fact.
Not imagination.

* equiv. to 896040 nops (which are 4 cycles "instructions") for 1 sec.

You are the archetype of sealioning people ;
Wasting precious people's time posting pile of shit.

Then never mind. I'll work on other projects for other consoles. There's no point in wasting time if technical discussion is going to keep breaking down into personal attacks. I haven't seen this kind of hostility on any other console discussion, development forum, etc.

Here's another edit; my version is below, and xfixium's original version is above.

On this one I took some greater liberties with the palette, mixing some World Warrior colors with some Champion Edition colors, to try to make it the best of both.

A bunch of stuff was smoothed out, the lights were brightened up, and I've tried improving the faces of the people in the background.

Balrog Stage big.png (62.62 KB)

Here's a new edit. This time I changed a lot of stuff to accommodate some of the missing elements, and added some more antialiasing.

This version still fits in the original specs (no overflow, and no vertical flipping), so it's perfectly playable.

Balrog Stage mankrip big.png (39.26 KB)

mankrip wrote

Here's a new edit. This time I changed a lot of stuff to accommodate some of the missing elements, and added some more antialiasing.

This version still fits in the original specs (no overflow, and no vertical flipping), so it's perfectly playable.

This looks fantastic!

When will Champion Edition be done?

KnightWarrior wrote

When will Champion Edition be done?

I haven't made a topic for it yet. No ETA for it. It was started about a month ago.

Author	Message
maxxoccupancy Joined: 05 Mar 2022 Posts: 129 Location: Seabrook, New Hampshire	Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2023 6:24 am
	ichigobankai wrote @cireza Actually you can easily flip a sprites before uploading it in VRAM. Just a little LUT needed. It will take 2 times more cycles. As the SMS can't flip by default these data, it can be a good choice to have both side different (like always have the sword or shield in the same hand) ;) I suggested that at one point, even using a LUT for scaling objects down, but was roundly criticized for suggesting this. LUTs were powerful tools in the 1970s and 80s for so many machines that lacked floating point hardware to perform these tasks.

ichigobankai Joined: 04 Jul 2010 Posts: 542 Location: Angers, France	Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2023 6:30 am
	maxxoccupancy wrote [...]That's 9,000 Z80 instructions per frame. Wrong, that's 14 934 nops (or any 4 cycles instruction) @60fps... Stop using dumb numbers for anything please. Better solution, remove completly the background. Use 15 color for P1 (bkg pal) , 15 color for p2 (spr pal), and move the background (like a layer) to achieve 1px precision for P1 The render will be like Holosseum (Sega Arcade system 32)

mankrip Joined: 02 Mar 2023 Posts: 14	Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2023 2:29 pm
mankrip Joined: 02 Mar 2023 Posts: 14	Well, if you want to go really hardcore about 60fps without flickering, the way is to make the entire game's graphics rotated by 90 degrees. This way each character could be up to 8 sprite tiles tall and there would be no width limitations. ... hmm, except when one character jumps over each other. In this case there would still be flickering. Anyway, these thought experiments are really fun. Now I'm looking into devkitSMS, maybe I'll eventually try something out. guile_dance.gif (2.27 KB)

cireza Joined: 27 Feb 2023 Posts: 136 Location: France	Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2023 5:04 pm
cireza Joined: 27 Feb 2023 Posts: 136 Location: France	Not a very serious answer, obviously, but another solution would have been to make a fighting game in TATE mode with a greater focus on aerial combat :) Sprites disappearing would be reduced to instances where one character is above/below the other, so definitely less frequent than when they are aligned and throwing fireballs at each other in normal display mode.

mankrip Joined: 02 Mar 2023 Posts: 14	Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2023 5:51 pm
mankrip Joined: 02 Mar 2023 Posts: 14	Yep, that's what I said.

haroldoop Joined: 25 Feb 2006 Posts: 874 Location: Belo Horizonte, MG, Brazil	Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2023 7:04 pm
	Yet another unadviseable idea: If the backgrounds were a solid color, it would be possible to use 8 times the normal amount of ROM to store every possible preshifted tiles; in this case, sprites would only be used when the tiles for one fighter would be overlapping the other.

cireza Joined: 27 Feb 2023 Posts: 136 Location: France	Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2023 6:18 am
cireza Joined: 27 Feb 2023 Posts: 136 Location: France	mankrip wrote Yep, that's what I said. Indeed ! Well that's funny. I didn't see your answer, I think the topic was open on the previous one when I answered, and we had the same idea in the end :)

willbritton Joined: 06 Mar 2022 Posts: 671 Location: London, UK	Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2023 7:08 am
	If you set the game in a nightclub you could interleave the meta sprite display on alternate frames and say that it's a strobe light effect. P.S. I would actually be seriously interested to see and play a vertical fighting game.. The idea reminds me of the parts in Gunstar Heroes where you are falling down a big shaft but carry on fighting the boss.

maxxoccupancy Joined: 05 Mar 2022 Posts: 129 Location: Seabrook, New Hampshire	Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2023 7:09 pm
	ichigobankai wrote maxxoccupancy wrote [...]That's 9,000 Z80 instructions per frame. Wrong, that's 14 934 nops (or any 4 cycles instruction) @60fps... Stop using dumb numbers for anything please. Better solution, remove completly the background. Use 15 color for P1 (bkg pal) , 15 color for p2 (spr pal), and move the background (like a layer) to achieve 1px precision for P1 The render will be like Holosseum (Sega Arcade system 32) Why are you being abusive? Official numbers from ZILOG are 510,000 instructions per second, which is just under 9,000 per frame at 60fps (about 3600 bytes of memory moves). If you disagree, post your own number. Don't tear into people.

maxxoccupancy Joined: 05 Mar 2022 Posts: 129 Location: Seabrook, New Hampshire	SMS Street Fighter 2 ROM Hack Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2023 7:11 pm
	willbritton wrote If you set the game in a nightclub you could interleave the meta sprite display on alternate frames and say that it's a strobe light effect. P.S. I would actually be seriously interested to see and play a vertical fighting game.. The idea reminds me of the parts in Gunstar Heroes where you are falling down a big shaft but carry on fighting the boss. Overhead or isometric or "drone view." Isometric might sound far out, but it could put most of the sprites for the two characters on different scanlines even if they are right on each other. And it wouldn't have to be isometric like Diablo or SimCity with a 30 degree angle. A 45 degree angle looking down from high up (60-75 degrees) would put the body of one character completely above the other. So both characters could be six sprites (48 pixels) wide, leaving a safe margin of two more sprites for punches and kicks before flickering becomes a risk (with nine on a horizontal line). Think of it as looking down on a fight from a third or fourth story window. You can still see what's going on in real time, and you actually get more room to move (320 pixels of move distance instead of 256, or effectively about 240 pixels between fighters instead of 180). A high angle "drone view" isometric version of Street Fighter 2 (or a similar fight game) would make it easier to put move combos together due to the square shape of the control pad, though I'm sure that it would be tougher in emulation since many people are just using their keyboard.

ichigobankai Joined: 04 Jul 2010 Posts: 542 Location: Angers, France	Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2023 8:47 pm
	maxxoccupancy wrote Why are you being abusive? Official numbers from ZILOG are 510,000 instructions per second, which is just under 9,000 per frame at 60fps (about 3600 bytes of memory moves). If you disagree, post your own number. Don't tear into people. One more time, your numbers are just copy/paste from nowhere. Which Z80 frequency ? What kind of instruction ? You have ONLY 228 cycles per scanline and 262 lines...that's 59736 cycles per frame @60hz, no more, no less. That's fact. Not imagination. equiv. to 896040 nops (which are 4 cycles "instructions") for 1 sec. You are the archetype of sealioning people ; Wasting precious people's time posting pile of shit.

Maxim Site Admin Joined: 19 Oct 1999 Posts: 14745 Location: London	Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2023 8:56 pm
	Let’s stay civil and also stop saying dumb things. It’s not hard to learn, please don’t post if you haven’t learned enough to participate reasonably or suffer from an inability to be corrected.

segarule Joined: 23 Jan 2010 Posts: 439	Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2023 1:13 am
segarule Joined: 23 Jan 2010 Posts: 439	Ah This is what i call "partial" moderation. My post with video about nederland fans was deleted. But @ichigo posted a direct offense verbal and of him not had deleted. post. Why? The forum criteria made me astonished. If Maxim´s friend or sympathizent no norms. The norms are here = general rule, there= no rule or what forum manager want. BTW @ichigo is completely correct about supermaxx in everything said.

macbee Joined: 15 Sep 2010 Posts: 49 Location: Brazil	Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2023 2:34 am Last edited by macbee on Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
macbee Joined: 15 Sep 2010 Posts: 49 Location: Brazil	In my opinion, new games for retro consoles should be optimized for the widescreen displays used nowadays. When it comes to a V.S. fighting game, this should be even more taken into consideration! Since 4:3 displays aren't sold anymore, a game with anamorphic widescreen visuals would take advantage of current televisions (just because the Master System was released almost 40 years ago, it doesn't mean that its new games need to be necessarily bound to the aspect ratio of TVs from that time). Furthermore, widescreen optimization results in a SIGNIFICANT reduction in the number of sprites required to create characters. They will look "thin" horizontally (when viewed in the Master System's original 1:1 ratio), but will have the correct proportions when appearing in 16:9. In other words, your game will fit today's TVs screens correctly (which is pretty cool!), no visual sacrifice/deformation will been made to how the characters looks, many sprites will be saved and flickering will decrease significantly. DssGOPPWoAEYItp.jpeg (8.41 KB) DssGO67WkAIIz7C.jpeg (13.71 KB)

Black_Tiger Joined: 23 Mar 2008 Posts: 9 Location: Canada	Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2023 8:44 pm
	If someone chooses to distort their classic game images by stretching them to fit modern screens, that's their business, but I think that it ruins the experience. Making a pixelart game for classic consoles with only a single mode that caters to widescreen is a terrible idea.

segarule Joined: 23 Jan 2010 Posts: 439	Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2023 9:18 pm
segarule Joined: 23 Jan 2010 Posts: 439	Im so curious about the ichigo mapper. What it can do in matter of games? It will be useful more for fighting games or other genres?

slogra Joined: 09 Jun 2014 Posts: 378	Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2023 7:39 am
slogra Joined: 09 Jun 2014 Posts: 378	macbee wrote In my opinion, new games for retro consoles should be optimized for the widescreen displays used nowadays. When it comes to a V.S. fighting game, this should be even more taken into consideration! Since 4:3 displays aren't sold anymore, a game with anamorphic widescreen visuals would take advantage of current televisions (just because the Master System was released almost 40 years ago, it doesn't mean that its new games need to be necessarily bound to the aspect ratio of TVs from that time). Furthermore, widescreen optimization results in a SIGNIFICANT reduction in the number of sprites required to create characters. They will look "thin" horizontally (when viewed in the Master System's original 8:7 ratio), but will have the correct proportions when appearing in 16:9. In other words, your game will fit today's TVs screens correctly (which is pretty cool!), no visual sacrifice/deformation will been made to how the characters looks, many sprites will be saved and flickering will decrease significantly. The sprites are based on the snes sprites, which also stretches the screen, so aspect ratio is already taken into account. Of course it still depends whether you play in 50hz or 60hz. Where 50hz is even more stretched.

maxxoccupancy Joined: 05 Mar 2022 Posts: 129 Location: Seabrook, New Hampshire	Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2023 9:33 pm
	ichigobankai wrote maxxoccupancy wrote Why are you being abusive? Official numbers from ZILOG are 510,000 instructions per second, which is just under 9,000 per frame at 60fps (about 3600 bytes of memory moves). If you disagree, post your own number. Don't tear into people. One more time, your numbers are just copy/paste from nowhere. Which Z80 frequency ? What kind of instruction ? You have ONLY 228 cycles per scanline and 262 lines...that's 59736 cycles per frame @60hz, no more, no less. That's fact. Not imagination. equiv. to 896040 nops (which are 4 cycles "instructions") for 1 sec. You are the archetype of sealioning people ; Wasting precious people's time posting pile of shit. Then never mind. I'll work on other projects for other consoles. There's no point in wasting time if technical discussion is going to keep breaking down into personal attacks. I haven't seen this kind of hostility on any other console discussion, development forum, etc.

mankrip Joined: 02 Mar 2023 Posts: 14	Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2023 7:41 pm
mankrip Joined: 02 Mar 2023 Posts: 14	Here's another edit; my version is below, and xfixium's original version is above. On this one I took some greater liberties with the palette, mixing some World Warrior colors with some Champion Edition colors, to try to make it the best of both. A bunch of stuff was smoothed out, the lights were brightened up, and I've tried improving the faces of the people in the background. Balrog Stage big.png (62.62 KB)

mankrip Joined: 02 Mar 2023 Posts: 14	Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2024 1:46 am
mankrip Joined: 02 Mar 2023 Posts: 14	Here's a new edit. This time I changed a lot of stuff to accommodate some of the missing elements, and added some more antialiasing. This version still fits in the original specs (no overflow, and no vertical flipping), so it's perfectly playable. Balrog Stage mankrip big.png (39.26 KB)

NewHorizon Joined: 30 Nov 2017 Posts: 74	Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2024 8:09 pm
NewHorizon Joined: 30 Nov 2017 Posts: 74	mankrip wrote Here's a new edit. This time I changed a lot of stuff to accommodate some of the missing elements, and added some more antialiasing. This version still fits in the original specs (no overflow, and no vertical flipping), so it's perfectly playable. This looks fantastic!

KnightWarrior Joined: 19 Feb 2009 Posts: 98	Posted: Today at 8:44 am
KnightWarrior Joined: 19 Feb 2009 Posts: 98	When will Champion Edition be done?

xfixium Joined: 18 Jul 2020 Posts: 378	Posted: Today at 10:21 am
xfixium Joined: 18 Jul 2020 Posts: 378	KnightWarrior wrote When will Champion Edition be done? I haven't made a topic for it yet. No ETA for it. It was started about a month ago.

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