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In a menu, what do you find more intuitive?

left button (1,start) as "ok/confirm" and right button (2) as "cancel/back" 78% 78%
left button (1,start) as "cancel/back" and right button (2) as "ok/confirm" 21% 21%
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Menu buttons poll
Post Posted: Wed May 11, 2022 2:42 am
In a menu, what do you find more intuitive?

A) left button (1,start) as "ok/confirm" and right button (2) as "cancel/back"
B) left button (1,start) as "cancel/back" and right button (2) as "ok/confirm"
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Post Posted: Wed May 11, 2022 3:28 pm
Have you done a survey for how Sega games did it historically? For example, I believe Wonder Boy in Monster World has it as 1 = Cancel, 2 = OK/Accept. I believe other titles such as Spellcaster also do it this way. But can you gather stats on how many games did it one way or the other?
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Post Posted: Wed May 11, 2022 4:38 pm
SavagePencil wrote
Have you done a survey for how Sega games did it historically? For example, I believe Wonder Boy in Monster World has it as 1 = Cancel, 2 = OK/Accept. I believe other titles such as Spellcaster also do it this way. But can you gather stats on how many games did it one way or the other?

He asked for what's intuitive so it shouldn't matter what games did, only what feels right to us.
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Post Posted: Wed May 11, 2022 5:46 pm
This is true! But what feels natural may have been informed by what we've played before. Having just gone through about 50+ games in participation of an upcoming YouTube review of the SMS, I was struck by how comfortable I found myself navigating menus, which was usually 1=cancel, 2=accept/OK for in-game.
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Post Posted: Wed May 11, 2022 8:17 pm
Personally, I see "1 / start" on the master system controller, so I assume 1 will validate a choice on that console !

In my opinion, the "2 as validate" bias probably comes from the NES or the GB, where the "main button" is on the right. So, to me, it feels natural there but not on SMS.
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Post Posted: Wed May 11, 2022 10:37 pm
If we accept that 1 = attack and 2 = jump is the One True Way then by extension 1 = attack = engage = select = accept and 2 = jump = avoid = cancel. Also, on Windows we’d see OK on the left and Cancel on the right (less so on fruity operating systems).
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Post Posted: Wed May 11, 2022 11:11 pm
Cue the "vbMsgBoxRtlReading" flag 😁



It doesn't work in all versions of Windows, though. Which might be a good thing since it does look weird.

(note that "Annulla" is the Italian word for "Cancel", this isn't a customised dialog, it's a stock MsgBox)
Image1.png (2.07 KB)
Image1.png

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Post Posted: Thu May 12, 2022 3:04 am
A small sample of games that use 1 for cancel and 2 for accept:

* Casino Games
* Parlour Games
* Alex Kidd in High Tech World
* Miracle Warriors
* Phantasy Star
* Spellcaster
* Ultima IV
* Wonder Boy in Monster World
* Wonder Boy III
* Ys

Games that use 1 for accept and 2 for cancel:
* King's Quest
* Ghostbusters

Games that only use 1 for accept (no cancel):
* Wonder Boy in Monster Land

Games that use 1 or 2 for accept:
* Alex Kidd in Miracle World
* California Games
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Post Posted: Thu May 12, 2022 1:48 pm
armixer24 wrote
Personally, I see "1 / start" on the master system controller, so I assume 1 will validate a choice on that console !

In my opinion, the "2 as validate" bias probably comes from the NES or the GB, where the "main button" is on the right. So, to me, it feels natural there but not on SMS.

Which is what lead to (at least for RPGs) the SNES generally going "A accept B cancel" which lead to the PlayStation designers making buttons officially designated as the Accept (O) and Cancel (X/Cross) buttons... and then their American division not getting the idea and effectively mandating Japanese developers have to flip them in the localization process.
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Post Posted: Thu May 12, 2022 2:04 pm
Tom wrote
Cue the "vbMsgBoxRtlReading" flag 😁


TIL!
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Post Posted: Thu May 12, 2022 6:15 pm
Well, that’s to accommodate all the right-to-left languages. Sometime people have fun by putting Unicode RTL override characters in their posts.

‮The result can be a bit confusing…
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Post Posted: Thu May 12, 2022 7:12 pm
SavagePencil wrote
A small sample of games that use 1 for cancel and 2 for accept:

* Casino Games
* Parlour Games
* Alex Kidd in High Tech World
* Miracle Warriors
* Phantasy Star
* Spellcaster
* Ultima IV
* Wonder Boy in Monster World
* Wonder Boy III
* Ys

Dragon Crystal also fits this list.
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Post Posted: Fri May 13, 2022 7:58 am
armixer24 wrote
Personally, I see "1 / start" on the master system controller, so I assume 1 will validate a choice on that console


I agree with this opinion. To me, the fact that they labelled the left button "1/START" instead of simply "1" it's clearly an indication that is (or should be) the preferred button to engage, confirm, proceed, etc.

I wouldn't infer that from any other source, as for instance the position of the buttons. Of course if the question was 'what do games used for...' that would need a different approach.
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Post Posted: Fri May 13, 2022 8:32 am
sverx wrote
armixer24 wrote
Personally, I see "1 / start" on the master system controller, so I assume 1 will validate a choice on that console


I agree with this opinion. To me, the fact that they labelled the left button "1/START" instead of simply "1" it's clearly an indication that is (or should be) the preferred button to engage, confirm, proceed, etc.

I wouldn't infer that from any other source, as for instance the position of the buttons. Of course if the question was 'what do games used for...' that would need a different approach.

Why does START imply confirmation? In Monopoly "go back to start" rather means back. :P
START is the beginning, it's only behind you if you haven't started yet.

Maxim wrote
If we accept that 1 = attack and 2 = jump is the One True Way then by extension 1 = attack = engage = select = accept and 2 = jump = avoid = cancel. Also, on Windows we’d see OK on the left and Cancel on the right (less so on fruity operating systems).

I had a similar thinking but to me attack is standing still and punching away the option, i.e., cancel while jump is to advance.

So according to the sample provided above, most games used 2 for confirmation and the points of both of you can be interpreted to confirm 2 for confirmation. :P

Fwiw the Everdrive menu uses 1 for confirmation. And I always press the wrong button first.
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Post Posted: Fri May 13, 2022 11:42 am
if its really a problem (i don't think so, as its a personnal choice and must be described in a manual) but you can easily rule them all ;
add an option menu where you can exchange button (and save the state in sram for future power cycles)
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Post Posted: Fri May 13, 2022 12:17 pm
Calindro wrote
Why does START imply confirmation?


Well, no, by itself it doesn't. But the fact that one button has START written over it and the other doesn't, suggest this one is the one to start some action, in contrast of going back or cancel...

Calindro wrote
Fwiw the Everdrive menu uses 1 for confirmation. And I always press the wrong button first.


This confirms my thoughts :P
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Post Posted: Fri May 13, 2022 5:13 pm
Going through a bunch of games recently and getting to Zillion and original Alex Kidd in Miracle World, where they swapped 1 and 2 for jump and shoot, I can confirm how frustrating it is when there's a lack of consistency.
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Post Posted: Fri May 13, 2022 5:44 pm
Calindro wrote

Why does START imply confirmation? In Monopoly "go back to start" rather means back. :P

I have to say, if we want to be that specific, in Monopoly, the starting space in English is called "Go", not "Start". :P
Additionally, all chance cards ( https://www.monopolyland.com/list-monopoly-chance-community-chest-cards/ ) actually ask to advance to or pass forward through the "Go" space, never backwards :P


Anyway, I feel that this comparsion is a bit far-fetched :P
A button labelled Start most likely implies "to start" as the action, rather than "the start" as a place of beginning something.
For "go back to start", you're probably looking at the reset button :D
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Post Posted: Wed May 18, 2022 12:06 am
Thank you everybody.

Maxim wrote
If we accept that 1 = attack and 2 = jump is the One True Way then by extension 1 = attack = engage = select = accept and 2 = jump = avoid = cancel. Also, on Windows we’d see OK on the left and Cancel on the right (less so on fruity operating systems).


Thank you for adding the poll. I am happy to see I agree with the majority of the voters.

I believe windows (though my daily driver is linux) is subconsciously the main reason for which I find this configuration the most intuitive, and maybe also the labeling "start" as pointed out by armixer24.
But, as SavagePencil points out, probably most of the games use button 2 as the confirmation button.
I think KingMike observation on Playstation's controller localization may explain why famicon games, and as a consequence, sms games, had the right button as confirm: They assigned the "first" button to "OK", and the rightmost button is the "first" one (named A) because in Japan often things are labeled from the right to left (I believe this comes from the the fact that you write from the right when writing vertically).
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