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  • Joined: 12 Jul 1999
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SSF?
Post Posted: Thu Jul 29, 1999 12:34 pm
Seeing as we haven't heard from this side of things for a little while, how goes it?
I really like the idea of this. It shows a lot of potential.
Maybe if we get far enough, Sega might actually release some official development software and docs.
Hmm....
Has anybody thought of actually asking Sega for some Tech Docs?
~unfnknblvbl
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Nyef
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Post Posted: Thu Jul 29, 1999 2:11 pm
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> Seeing as we haven't heard from this side of things for a little while, how goes it?
> I really like the idea of this. It shows a lot of potential.

True. I'm thinking of working up a counter proposal for a draft spec (one that suits my purpose better).

Quote
> Maybe if we get far enough, Sega might actually release some official development software and docs.

Bwahahahaha. Yeah, right. :-)

Quote
> Hmm....
> Has anybody thought of actually asking Sega for some Tech Docs?

Why bother? We already know almost everything.

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> ~unfnknblvbl

--Nyef
 
  • Joined: 12 Jul 1999
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Post Posted: Thu Jul 29, 1999 2:28 pm
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> > Seeing as we haven't heard from this side of things for a little while, how goes it?
> > I really like the idea of this. It shows a lot of potential.

> True. I'm thinking of working up a counter proposal for a draft spec (one that suits my purpose better).

Nah. I prefer the idea of having a raw binary to include in the games rather than a 'ripped' format.

Maybe we could have an SSF1 format as the binary one and an SSF2 as your 'ripped' format (SF1/SF2?).

Quote
> > Maybe if we get far enough, Sega might actually release some official development software and docs.

> Bwahahahaha. Yeah, right. :-)

Why shouldn't they?
Anyway, it was just a thought...

Quote
> > Hmm....
> > Has anybody thought of actually asking Sega for some Tech Docs?

> Why bother? We already know almost everything.

*almost*
You never know untill you try.

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> > ~unfnknblvbl

> --Nyef

~unfnknblvbl
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Eric
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Post Posted: Thu Jul 29, 1999 4:10 pm
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> Seeing as we haven't heard from this side of things for a little while, how goes it?

I've been examining Zoops proposal. I think it shows a lot of potential. There are some changes I'd like to make to ease parsing it during a SMS program's execution. I still need to examine them closer, and try writing some sample code to see how it works. I'll post my findings here when I'm finished.

I've been studying the FM chip. I really think the SSF format should include FM style music right from the beginning. It would be much to hard to add later. I don't yet know how to do it exactly.

Also, there seems to be a concern over "raw" binary and "ripped" formats. I'm not sure I understand exactly how a "raw binary" format would work. Any one care to elaborate?

If any one has suggestions for the format, please post them, but remember, we are trying to create a standard here. The sooner we can converge on the basics, the better off we are.

Let me re-state what I believe are some of the major design goals:

1.) To represent ALL kinds of SMS sound/music.

2.) To allow "ripping" of SMS music in real-time. Perhaps a little post-processing (by the "ripper" software, invisible to the user) could be allowed after "recording" has stopped.

3.) To be easy to parse to allow play-back of SMS music in real-time (on special "SSF players")

4.) A format that can be used to represent music in home-made SMS programs.
(On this topic, it seems clear that "INCLUDEing" the SSF will not be acceptable. I think the best approach is to regard it as a binary resource, which is then LINKed with the program .obj files to produce the final executable. I have long considered writting a SMSLINK program that could combine code, and graphics or sound resource files into a .sms file. The benefit of LINKing is that the graphics/sound files don't have to be text-based.)

Finally, let me ask: Do people think the format should include multiple songs, or should each file contain only a single song?

Eric
 
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Post Posted: Thu Jul 29, 1999 4:34 pm
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> > > Seeing as we haven't heard from this side of things for a little while, how goes it?
> > > I really like the idea of this. It shows a lot of potential.

> > True. I'm thinking of working up a counter proposal for a draft spec (one that suits my purpose better).

> Nah. I prefer the idea of having a raw binary to include in the games rather than a 'ripped' format.

> Maybe we could have an SSF1 format as the binary one and an SSF2 as your 'ripped' format (SF1/SF2?).

> > > Maybe if we get far enough, Sega might actually release some official development software and docs.

> > Bwahahahaha. Yeah, right. :-)

> Why shouldn't they?
> Anyway, it was just a thought...

> > > Hmm....
> > > Has anybody thought of actually asking Sega for some Tech Docs?

> > Why bother? We already know almost everything.

> *almost*
> You never know untill you try.

> > > ~unfnknblvbl

> > --Nyef

> ~unfnknblvbl
Data files can all be done differently I think trying to make a universal binary file doesnt really help much for anything
but a ripped format would be similiar to nsf and allow us to listen to some classic sega tunes I dont know where you are all
going with this raw binary format since most likely it wont be the most useful for everyone
 
  • Joined: 24 Jun 1999
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Post Posted: Thu Jul 29, 1999 9:34 pm
Quote
> I've been studying the FM chip. I really think the SSF format should include FM style music right from the beginning. It would be much to hard to add later.

Not harder to add it now than later. The format of the music itself will be different, so after the right, "FM bit" is set, parsing and playing will be done differently.

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> 2.) To allow "ripping" of SMS music in real-time. Perhaps a little post-processing (by the "ripper" software, invisible to the user) could be allowed after "recording" has stopped.

Easy to do with the format I proposed.

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> 3.) To be easy to parse to allow play-back of SMS music in real-time (on special "SSF players")

The format is so simple that even a 8086 could parse and interpret the whole file, skipping all plays to reach the end.

Quote
> 4.) A format that can be used to represent music in home-made SMS programs.
> Finally, let me ask: Do people think the format should include multiple songs, or should each file contain only a single song?

The data for a single song would be included in your own programs.
A tool could be made to extract the songs data from a .SSF file that could contains more than one song.
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Eric
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Post Posted: Thu Jul 29, 1999 10:10 pm
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> > I've been studying the FM chip. I really think the SSF format should include FM style music right from the beginning. It would be much to hard to add later.

> Not harder to add it now than later. The format of the music itself will be different, so after the right, "FM bit" is set, parsing and playing will be done differently.

Yes, but if possible the parser should be as simple as possible. We should try to write the format to represent FM and PSG music as similarly as possible. We should try to avoid having two parsers for different kinds of music.

Quote
> > 2.) To allow "ripping" of SMS music in real-time. Perhaps a little post-processing (by the "ripper" software, invisible to the user) could be allowed after "recording" has stopped.

> Easy to do with the format I proposed.

I agree.

Quote
> > 3.) To be easy to parse to allow play-back of SMS music in real-time (on special "SSF players")

> The format is so simple that even a 8086 could parse and interpret the whole file, skipping all plays to reach the end.

Again, I agree.

Quote
> > 4.) A format that can be used to represent music in home-made SMS programs.
> > Finally, let me ask: Do people think the format should include multiple songs, or should each file contain only a single song?

> The data for a single song would be included in your own programs.
> A tool could be made to extract the songs data from a .SSF file that could contains more than one song.

That's fine, but does it make sense that a file should contain more than one song. No other major file format does this. MIDI files only contain one song. Graphics files only contain one picture. Why should SSF be different? Why would you want more than one song in a file anyway? If you want to catalog songs, that should be a feature of the SSF player.

Eric
 
  • Joined: 24 Jun 1999
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Post Posted: Fri Jul 30, 1999 9:17 pm
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> That's fine, but does it make sense that a file should contain more than one song. No other major file format does this. MIDI files only contain one song. Graphics files only contain one picture. Why should SSF be different? Why would you want more than one song in a file anyway? If you want to catalog songs, that should be a feature of the SSF player.

The NSF format can includes multiple songs.
That permit to have a, let's say, WBOY3.SSF file that would contains all musics of the game.
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Eric
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Post Posted: Fri Jul 30, 1999 10:00 pm
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> > That's fine, but does it make sense that a file should contain more than one song. No other major file format does this. MIDI files only contain one song. Graphics files only contain one picture. Why should SSF be different? Why would you want more than one song in a file anyway? If you want to catalog songs, that should be a feature of the SSF player.

> The NSF format can includes multiple songs.

Yes, so? NSF is not a "major" file format. I think we are better off taking our cues from "professional" file formats that have stood the test of time: MID, BMP, GIF, PCX, JPG. None of these formats contains multiple songs/images.

Quote
> That permit to have a, let's say, WBOY3.SSF file that would contains all musics of the game.

Why can't you just have a folder called WBOY3 and put all the single-song files into that folder? This allows much easier access to individual songs.

I still believe the SSF format should only support one song files. However, I'm am willing to concede the matter if other developers in this forum believe a multi-song format is better. Will others please voice their opinions, (especially you composers out there?)

Eric
 
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Single song. *nt*
Post Posted: Sun Aug 01, 1999 3:25 am

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Limbs a Flyin'
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Post Posted: Sun Aug 01, 1999 4:13 am


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> I still believe the SSF format should only support one song files. However, I'm am willing to concede the matter if other developers in this forum believe a multi-song format is better. Will others please voice their opinions, (especially you composers out there?)

> Eric

or just have a header flag that defines the file as either a single song or a multi song file? i cant realy see why you are so obsessed with limiting it to single song format ;)
anyways you mention gif, yet we see many animated gifs around. and you also mention jpeg, but the multi image format of that is (or often considered to be) mpeg, i am lead to believe (assuming you have no sound)

anyways, the way this looks now, this early ssf format is a linear log of sound instructions, correct? not realy the best way to extract sounds from a rom, more suited to creating new music for a new sms game, right? anyways, even if you do establish this as a 'format' doesnt mean eveyone will follow it ;)
i mean you could have a log format, as well as more formats, following different names if they want to (eg a more 'executable' format, like nsf)

and like the saying goes, the great thing about standards is that there's so many to choose from...
 
Eric
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Post Posted: Sun Aug 01, 1999 7:59 am


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> > I still believe the SSF format should only support one song files. However, I'm am willing to concede the matter if other developers in this forum believe a multi-song format is better. Will others please voice their opinions, (especially you composers out there?)

> > Eric

> or just have a header flag that defines the file as either a single song or a multi song file? i cant realy see why you are so obsessed with limiting it to single song format ;)

I guess I just prefer it. Besides, the format will never get completed if no one makes any definite decisions.

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> anyways you mention gif, yet we see many animated gifs around. and you also mention jpeg, but the multi image format of that is (or often considered to be) mpeg, i am lead to believe (assuming you have no sound)

Good points.

Quote
> anyways, the way this looks now, this early ssf format is a linear log of sound instructions, correct? not realy the best way to extract sounds from a rom, more suited to creating new music for a new sms game, right? anyways, even if you do establish this as a 'format' doesnt mean eveyone will follow it ;)

I suppose not, but I my hope is that everyone would. I'm assuming that any one interested in a SMS music file format reads this message-board. If they have a problem with the format, as it is developing, hopefully they will speak up now. Why make things harder on ourselves with multiple formats? We're not that big a group so far. I estimate there's only half-a-dozen people who have shown any interest in SSF. If the SSF is a good format in the first place and a library of functions to use it in home-made software is available, why would someone want to create another format?

Eric
 
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Questions...
Post Posted: Sun Aug 01, 1999 8:24 am
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>

> I suppose not, but I my hope is that everyone would. I'm assuming that any one interested in a SMS music file format reads this message-board. If they have a problem with the format, as it is developing, hopefully they will speak up now. Why make things harder on ourselves with multiple formats? We're not that big a group so far. I estimate there's only half-a-dozen people who have shown any interest in SSF. If the SSF is a good format in the first place and a library of functions to use it in home-made software is available, why would someone want to create another format?

> Eric


Hmm...
OK, I am an extreme newbie to the world of programming, and, as yet, do not understand the SSF pre-standard.
First of all, as a composer, I'd like to say that a single-song format sounds more appealing to me than a multi-song format. From what I could understand of Zoop's proposal, he feels the same way.

Question 1:
Would this format be just for stripping the music from a game, or would it allow for original compositions?

Question 2:
If it allows for original compositions, would somebody be programming a utility for the composition of original music?

Question 3:
I really like Chris' idea of a MID2PSG program. If he was to finish this, would the composition utility provide support for such a conversion, if it's allright by Chris, that is?

Sorry if I sound dumb or anything, it's just that programming speak is a little beyond me.
I would really love it if the SSF was to support original compositions, as I believe I have said before, I am always looking for new ways to write music.
~unfnknblvbl
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Re: Questions...
Post Posted: Sun Aug 01, 1999 9:27 am
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> Question 1:
> Would this format be just for stripping the music from a game, or would it allow for original compositions?

Both.

Quote
> Question 2:
> If it allows for original compositions, would somebody be programming a utility for the composition of original music?

Yes, if someone want to do it, but I guess it won't be the first thing done.
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Re: Questions...
Post Posted: Sun Aug 01, 1999 12:19 pm
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> > Question 1:
> > Would this format be just for stripping the music from a game, or would it allow for original compositions?

> Both.

Sweet!

Quote
> > Question 2:
> > If it allows for original compositions, would somebody be programming a utility for the composition of original music?

> Yes, if someone want to do it, but I guess it won't be the first thing done.

Fine.

Side note:
I am glad that those fuckwits from the other forum haven't discovered this one yet. Perhaps you should remove the link untill it all blows over(I suspect everyone here has bookmarked?).
I am truly sorry to hear about your Grandmother. You have my condolances.
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re: Side Note
Post Posted: Sun Aug 01, 1999 8:33 pm
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> Side note:
> I am glad that those fuckwits from the other forum haven't discovered this one yet. Perhaps you should remove the link untill it all blows over(I suspect everyone here has bookmarked?).

No need. If they come here they will be all banned in a second and their messages will be removed.

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> I am truly sorry to hear about your Grandmother. You have my condolances.

Thank you.
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That's good to know *nt*
Post Posted: Mon Aug 02, 1999 9:08 am
:>
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