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Need help troubleshooting
Post Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2020 4:47 pm
Hello!

I'm new to the forum but I'm at wit's end trying to troubleshoot one cartridge.

I recently got back into the SMS, bought a power base with the Snail Game bios, and started rebuilding my collection.

One of the carts I got in a lot, Great Baseball, is having a issue I cannot solve. The game is constantly reading up input even when there is no controller plugged in. All other directions are fine and the game is playable if you fight against "up" but does anyone here know what the problem is and how it can be fixed?

The only thing I've done so far is take the cart apart and cleaned the contacts.

Thanks!
Bryan
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Post Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2020 4:49 pm
It’s very odd for it to affect only one game. Have you tested other games where the up direction would be noticeable?
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Post Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2020 5:45 pm
Maxim wrote
It’s very odd for it to affect only one game. Have you tested other games where the up direction would be noticeable?


Every other game works totally fine. It's just this one.
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Post Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:39 am
Pezboy82 wrote
Maxim wrote
It’s very odd for it to affect only one game. Have you tested other games where the up direction would be noticeable?


Every other game works totally fine. It's just this one.


Have you tried without the joypad (or another one)?

Maybe this reads differently the pad and this causes trouble.
You should give it a try, just to see :)
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Post Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:13 pm
Yes. It does this whether or not a control pad is plugged in.
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Post Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:24 pm
I would also expect it to be a short, but UP would be read by pretty much all games, even with no pad connected

unless it's also reading the second port and the short is there instead, did you try any two player games?
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Post Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:53 pm
This is literally the only game this happens with. 1 player, 2 player, controllers in, controllers out... could there be something on the cartridge causing this?
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Post Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 6:23 am
Pezboy82 wrote
This is literally the only game this happens with. 1 player, 2 player, controllers in, controllers out... could there be something on the cartridge causing this?


That is completely possible if something were wrong with it. My guess is that the cart is putting data on the bus during reads of the IO chip.

IO port $DC is the controller ports, and the rom data at location $DC happens to be $01 (on the rom dump i have anyway). That would read as the up button on controller port A (Player 1) being held down. The outputs on the IO chip must be stronger than the ones in the ROM (for pulling high at least anyway) which is why the other buttons still work normally.

Take the cart apart and see if there there is anything obvious going on around the chips in it.
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Post Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 2:40 am
That's not quite right. The buttons are active low so $01 is actually UP not pressed and other buttons pressed.

The logic is otherwise sound. The trouble looks like the cart and not the console. Open up the cart and give the circuit board a good clean up with some iso.
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Post Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:03 am
asynchronous wrote
That's not quite right. The buttons are active low so $01 is actually UP not pressed and other buttons pressed.


Thats a big fail on my part. I think its likely something like that is going on here anyway
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Post Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 8:50 am
mmm... might be a short between data line D0 and IOReq so that when I/O is required you always read D0 to zero or this is impossible?
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Post Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:34 am
I think it would also cause corruption to the screen as it would conflict with all IO.
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Post Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:29 pm
Thanks, all.

Also, my apologies: When I made my initial post, I said the game was stuck moving up.... It actually is DOWN. When I go to the first menu, the cursor moves down, not up as I mentioned in my initial post.

I took apart the cart and it was already pristine. I gave it a good rub down with ISO and tried again after it dried off. The problem is still there.

I spent the $5 to get a replacement cart, so now this is just going to be a troubleshooting project.

What if I desolder the chip from the PCB and resolder it? Will that make any kind of difference?
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Post Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:51 pm
mmm, pretty curiously the code does this

ld a,$07
out ($DE),a


and immediately then reads the input

in a,($DC)


what's the point of that out? :|
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Post Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 6:56 pm
Quote
Some software will write data to ports $DE and $DF. The SG-1000 and SC-3000
had an 8255 PPI which used these ports to control a keyboard, but later
consoles got rid of it. There is a keyboard peripheral for the Mark III,
which perhaps some games try to detect and use.
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Post Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 3:02 am
This is an odd technical problem to say the least and there's no immediately visible solution for it unfortunately.

The best thing to do would be to rule out the cartridge as faulty. If you can, try the cartridge on another SMS if you have one, or a friend's if you have a friend that has an SMS.

As well as cleaning the contacts on the cartridge, cleaning the cartridge slot on the SMS is also a good idea. You can do this by folding a piece of plain white paper over and over to give it some thickness, then inserting it in and out of the cartridge slot connector a few times. You should see faint line appearing on the paper as the tarnish from the connector transfers to the paper.

For the cartridge itself, following a good cleaning all over, I would try replacing the electrolytic capacitor in the cartridge before soldering the ROM in and out.

In the end it could be though that the cartridge ROM itself is faulty though. :(
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Post Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:21 am
OK, apparently I did NOT properly try the other two player game I had.... let me backtrack a bit.

I received a different copy of the same game today and it has the exact same problem.

I plugged both controllers in and tried Great Football, selected a two player game, and yep, controller two is stuck in DOWN.

Now that I know it's the console and not the cartridge, how do I fix this issue.

Any and all help is greatly appreciated! Thank you for your suggestions above.
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Post Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:32 am
so I offer again my idea that there's a short on port 2

sverx wrote
unless it's also reading the second port and the short is there instead, did you try any two player games?


have you got a multimeter?
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Post Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:35 pm
sverx wrote
so I offer again my idea that there's a short on port 2

sverx wrote
unless it's also reading the second port and the short is there instead, did you try any two player games?


have you got a multimeter?


I would now bet the house that you're right. I do have a multimeter but I have no experience using it on a PCB. Can you walk me through finding the short and fixing it?

I've opened up the console and see nothing obvious around port 2.

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Need help troubleshooting
Post Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 4:00 am
OK, so now that we know it's the console and not the cartridge it goes from being a unusual problem to a typical problem.

But I'm keen to see a software guy (Sverx) lead the diagnosis no this one. :D
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Post Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 10:07 am
true, I have very little knowledge and experience with hardware

what I can do is to suggest that you confirm with a multimeter that there's indeed a short between pins 2 and 8 of port 2 (here's the schema) using a multimeter continuity test

I'd do that with the console turned off and unplugged from power, if it's a short on the contacts/traces it will do.

If the test confirms continuity, then we need to track where the bogus contact is. Again, I have no experience in this, but given enough time I bet I would find it. First place I'd check is where the pad port pine are soldered to the PCB board (I mean the other side of the board compared to your picture)
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Post Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 4:31 pm
Hey, not bad. And I meant no disrespect by that post sverx. On the contrary, it's good seeing people getting into the hardware.

Adding some detail to the above post:

Firstly, if you haven't already, visually inspect the controller port from the outside where the controller plugs into and make sure it is clean with no gunk or substance in there that could be causing this problem.

Measuring for a short or partial short between the Down line and ground. Do this test with the console turned OFF. Set your multimeter to the "Ohms" mode set to the 20K range or similar. Measure the resistance between pins 2 and 8 of the controller port with the multimeter. It should read as an open circuit. Let us know what reading you do get.

The second test to do is a measurement of the voltage of the line at IC4. This test is done with the console powered ON. For the 315-5216 chip, Player 2 Down is connected to pin # 39. For the 315-5237 chip, Player 2 Down is connected to pin # 16. Set your multimeter to "DC Volts" mode and a range that can measure 5.0 volts. With nothing plugged into the controller ports, the pin at IC4 should measure 5.0 volts or very close to 5.0 volts. Let us know what voltage you measure.
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Post Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:55 pm
asynchronous wrote
Hey, not bad. And I meant no disrespect by that post sverx. On the contrary, it's good seeing people getting into the hardware.

Adding some detail to the above post:

Firstly, if you haven't already, visually inspect the controller port from the outside where the controller plugs into and make sure it is clean with no gunk or substance in there that could be causing this problem.

Measuring for a short or partial short between the Down line and ground. Do this test with the console turned OFF. Set your multimeter to the "Ohms" mode set to the 20K range or similar. Measure the resistance between pins 2 and 8 of the controller port with the multimeter. It should read as an open circuit. Let us know what reading you do get.

The second test to do is a measurement of the voltage of the line at IC4. This test is done with the console powered ON. For the 315-5216 chip, Player 2 Down is connected to pin # 39. For the 315-5237 chip, Player 2 Down is connected to pin # 16. Set your multimeter to "DC Volts" mode and a range that can measure 5.0 volts. With nothing plugged into the controller ports, the pin at IC4 should measure 5.0 volts or very close to 5.0 volts. Let us know what voltage you measure.


Thank you both for the suggestions!

There is no gunk on the pins. Just to be safe, I gave it a little rub with some iso.

Testing continuity. I got a reading of 0.0L on pins 2 and 8. My multimeter manual says "The LCD will display '0L' if the circuit is open." I just read your directions again and I guess that's what it should say. :)

Testing voltage. On chip 315-5216, remember I'm a total newbie so correct me if I was wrong. I put the black lead on pin 11, which other research tells me is the ground, and I put the red lead on pin 39. Reading is 4.94.

Again, my sincere gratitude for walking me through this...

What's next?
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Post Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:16 pm
Here's what the soldering looks like
image.jpg (2.88 MB)
image.jpg

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Post Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 4:36 am
OK, I have an idea of where the fault may be. There's 3 more small tests I'd like you to perform:

TEST #1: With the console powered OFF, check the continuity between pin 2 of the controller port and pin #39 of IC4. You should measure close to or 0 ohms between these 2, indicating a great connection

TEST #2: With the console powered OFF, check the continuity between pin #11 of IC4 and the exposed outside border of the mainboard which is ground. You should measure 0 ohms between these 2, indicating a great connection.

TEST #3: With the console powered OFF, check the continuity of data line D7 between IC4 and the Z80 CPU (IC1). Again, you should measure 0 ohms between these 2 points, indicating a great connection.
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Post Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:59 am
asynchronous wrote
OK, I have an idea of where the fault may be. There's 3 more small tests I'd like you to perform:

TEST #1: With the console powered OFF, check the continuity between pin 2 of the controller port and pin #39 of IC4. You should measure close to or 0 ohms between these 2, indicating a great connection

TEST #2: With the console powered OFF, check the continuity between pin #11 of IC4 and the exposed outside border of the mainboard which is ground. You should measure 0 ohms between these 2, indicating a great connection.

TEST #3: With the console powered OFF, check the continuity of data line D7 between IC4 and the Z80 CPU (IC1). Again, you should measure 0 ohms between these 2 points, indicating a great connection.


TEST #1 - 0

TEST #2 - 0

TEST #3 - I don't know if I managed to locate D7, but I tested continuity between the two lines that are appeared to be connected between IC1 and IC4 and got 0. I accept that I might have been doing this wrong because the multimeter was beeping and giving a 0.00 when doing tests 1 and 2, but not changing from 0L when trying to find the right data line.

If you can tell me how to find D7 I'd appreciate that.
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Post Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 5:34 am
D7 is pin #13 on the Z80 (IC1) and Pin #14 on IC4.
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Post Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:13 am
asynchronous wrote
D7 is pin #13 on the Z80 (IC1) and Pin #14 on IC4.


Thank you. I got a nice beeping 0 testing at those pins.

I did recheck continuity at pins 2 and 8 of port 2 and got a reading of 1120 this time. Not sure if that means anything.
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Post Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:05 am
You need to tell me the range the multimeter was set to when you took the reading of “1120” for me to interpret it.

Now there’s always a chance that tests may have been done incorrectly or something is missed, but based on the results from your tests, it looks like your IC4 (315-5216) is faulty itself. The circuit between the controller port and IC4 looks OK. The connection between IC4 and the Z80 CPU also looks OK. But the DOWN line is always been read by the Z80 as low, even though externally the line is high.

Here are the possible repairs you can try in order to easiest to hardest:

1) Solder an external pull up resistor between pin #39 and Vcc. This is the first repair I would try for this kind of fault. It’s also the least difficult. The value of the resistor depends on the fault itself and will need some trial and error to determine. I would start with 4.7K resistor and see if that works. If that doesn’t fix it then try a 1K resistor. If that doesn’t fix it then the lowest value resistor I would try is 330 ohms. I have seen this repair both work and not work as it totally depends on how IC4 is damaged inside.

2) Try driving the pin externally using a hex buffer like the 74HC34. The controller port has a Vcc pin so you could build a small dongle using a DP14 breakout board or some Veroboard that plugs inline between the controller and the controller port. That would allow you to try it and see if it fixes the fault first without modifying the SMS internally. I’ve seen this work on one occasion so again it may or may not work depending on the damage to IC4.

3) Replace IC4. You’ll need to find a replacement out there. I’m not going to lie, I’ve removed chips from the SMS PCB and it’s a pain even with the good equipment.

Good Luck and let us all know how you go!
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Post Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2020 8:24 pm
asynchronous wrote
You need to tell me the range the multimeter was set to when you took the reading of “1120” for me to interpret it.


Sorry, I set the multimeter to the continuity check setting. That number is what I got.

asynchronous wrote
1) Solder an external pull up resistor between pin #39 and Vcc. This is the first repair I would try for this kind of fault. It’s also the least difficult. The value of the resistor depends on the fault itself and will need some trial and error to determine. I would start with 4.7K resistor and see if that works. If that doesn’t fix it then try a 1K resistor. If that doesn’t fix it then the lowest value resistor I would try is 330 ohms. I have seen this repair both work and not work as it totally depends on how IC4 is damaged inside.


There is a 50% chance that I've performed the tests incorrectly!

I think repair option #1 is the only one I am willing to try, but I have many questions about the process and where exactly the two ends of the resister are supposed to be soldered. My reservations lie in the fact that I have never ever soldered on a PCB before. My soldering is limited to splicing a cat-chewed usb cable back together and replacing pots on a set of Atari paddles. :o

If repair #1 doesn't work, I'll just stick with 1 player games. I think my mum still has a Power Base Converter in her basement. I can ask her to ship it to me to play 2 player games. :)

I've found a set of resistors on Amazon that include the 4.7K and 1K that you suggest. If it's not too much trouble, can you just quickly explain the process of soldering a pull-up resistor? The only tutorials I've found online aren't very helpful!

Cheers!
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Post Posted: Fri May 01, 2020 4:32 pm
Solder one end of the resistor to pin #39 of IC4 and the other end of the resistor to pin #32 of IC4 (the Vcc pin).

With soldering, the best thing to do is to watch a 'how to' video on Youtube to refresh you memory on the technique then practice on an old junk PCB before attempting it on the SMS. That will be better than reading any forum post on the topic. :)
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Post Posted: Sun May 03, 2020 8:12 pm
Okay, so I've ordered a set of resistors.

As I'm waiting for their arrival, I've watched some tutorial videos on youtube. I'm still a little unclear as to how to apply these to the SMS motherboard. For instance, the resistor soldering videos show that you push the resistor leads through the PCB and solder on the reverse. Will I be soldering on the top side of the PCB, connecting pins 39 and 32 or am I to push the leads through and solder on the reverse?

Thank you!
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Post Posted: Mon May 04, 2020 12:36 pm
You can solder the resistor directly to the pins of IC4 or you could try to find a pad on the PCB that is connected to the trace between the IC4 pin. I prefer the IC pin itself near the shoulder of the pin where it bends 90 degrees and goes into the IC. This is a robust piece of metal about 1mm-2mm thick which makes it easy to attached wires or leads to.

I can't stress enough how practicing the soldering on a junk PCB will help before attempting the repair. Soldering is a method and like any method practice helps. :)
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Post Posted: Mon May 04, 2020 3:45 pm
Okay, I looked all over the house and the only "junk" PCB I could find is from an Atari 2600 cart that seems to be dead. We just moved here last fall, and dumped all of our dead electronics before we left!

Once I get the resistor set, I'll give it a go practicing on this PCB. I worry about getting really good at doing it wrong, however. :\
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Post Posted: Mon May 11, 2020 2:58 am
Today, I wave the white flag. I soldered poorly the 4.7, 1k, 680, and 510 to the IC before giving up. Probably I was just making poor connections, but it's a right pain to solder to those little pins. My practice went right, but on the real thing I had a lot of trouble. I kept getting solder everywhere and kept catching the one player jack with the barrel of my iron melting part of it.

I appreciate the help and indulgence troubleshooting, but this is way above my pay grade.

I'm now going to try to wick away all the excess solder so that I can salvage the console for one player games.
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Post Posted: Mon May 11, 2020 7:50 am
That's a shame man. I'd totally do it for you for free but the cost of posting it back and forth to Australia for a repair that's not even guaranteed to be fixable is not feasible. :(
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Post Posted: Mon May 11, 2020 3:24 pm
I appreciate it.

Also, I seem to have burned through a trace from pin 28. Player 1 right no longer works.

I'm feeling a menace with a soldering iron, though my wife sanctioned the purchase of a replacement console.

Also, she wants me to practice more with the soldering iron.
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Post Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 5:48 pm
Here's the coda of the story:

I received yesterday an untested SMS console with a little bit of wear to the outside.

Plugged it in and got no power. Some research on YouTube led me to diagnose it being a dead 7805 regulator.

I succesfully transplanted the good 7805 from the old SMS console into this one and it works great. No two-player port issues!

Also, I transplanted the upper case from the old SMS to this one since it looks better.
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Post Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 8:42 pm
Pezboy82 wrote
Here's the coda of the story:

I received yesterday an untested SMS console with a little bit of wear to the outside.

Plugged it in and got no power. Some research on YouTube led me to diagnose it being a dead 7805 regulator.

I succesfully transplanted the good 7805 from the old SMS console into this one and it works great. No two-player port issues!

Also, I transplanted the upper case from the old SMS to this one since it looks better.


Does the game you originally posted work on it?

When I was a kid, Penguin Land kept going left on me. Only game that would have issues. 10yr old me opened up the cart and cut a resistor. For some reason that didn't fix the problem ;) the game still played though and still went left.

I recently put the game in my master system (30yrs later) and it worked fine. I probably should replace the resistor, not sure what it does since the game works fine without it, but probably best to do it.
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Post Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 8:49 pm
Yes, I played an entire game of Great Baseball for the first time in 25 years.
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Post Posted: Sat May 23, 2020 3:10 pm
Now that's a great outcome.

Quote
Here's the coda of the story


Are you a musician by chance?
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Post Posted: Sat May 23, 2020 3:50 pm
Yes. how could you tell? lol!
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