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I was reading through the "problems with unreleased VGMs" topic and was kind of surprised to see that a relevant format like VGM still depends on manual trimming and looping nowadays.

I understand that, this way, more people without technical knowledge will be able to obtain almost perfect rips of the music tracks, but it's still bound to have some accidental mistakes and, for example, any undocumented variations that the music could feature after many repeats (like Totaka's song easter egg in Nintendo's games) are always automatically lost, not to mention whole songs that might be completely unreferenced in the ROM but still stuck within the data (like the lost Sonic 3D boss tune I found).

So I was thinking, wouldn't all these looping and silence problems, as well as any others, be automatically fixed if each of the music tracks and their sound driver were directly extracted and run through an emulator? I mean, just like NES and Game Boy music (which are taken straight from the game's code), only with many different sound drivers to be extracted as well. This is how Amiga music works, some of the music tracks share a well known music format, while some of them use an obscure one that had to be reverse engineered and emulated to be played.

If so many people have been able to do such a thing with Amiga music, perhaps it's not that impossible to do with SMS and Mega Drive games, some of which having their sound drivers already documented and all.

Do you guys think doing this for the sake of preserving the music untouched in their original formats would be just a worthless waste of time and effort? I myself think it would be very interesting having something like this, but featuring these contents.

The reason we have VGMs instead of KSS (a format which supports SMS ripped music engines) is that VGMs are a lot easier to rip. Ripping music engines is hard and requires specialised knowledge, ripping VGMs is a lot easier to learn.

Analysing music engines isn't that hard, but it's kind of boring - they change incrementally with time, and can be mostly guessed by the sound credit or developer, or by listening for similarities in the style.

There's already a format like this for SMS/GG music: it's called SGC

Just for my own understanding, am I right that VGMs are essentially akin to MIDI files in that they log instructions for the sound chip rather than the sound itself?

Yes.

mic_ wrote

There's already a format like this for SMS/GG music: it's called SGC

Okay. More than 300 perfect rips have been made already? That's officially awesome.

Thanks so much for the link. To be honest, I can't believe that format is not getting some more support over here, since it's like the final step in faithfully storing and playing the game soundtracks.

Also, according to the linked topic, that guy has even automated the process for games that use the SEGA sound driver. This format seems to have so much potential, and I hope that a Mega Drive variation of this could eventually be developed.

Have you guys thought of releasing music packs in this format along with the VGMs?

I'd like to state something just to clarify, I think most VGM packs nowadays are created using music engine hacks to enumerate the songs so "secret" data are also uncovered if any.

Bock wrote

I'd like to state something just to clarify, I think most VGM packs nowadays are created using music engine hacks to enumerate the songs so "secret" data are also uncovered if any.

There's always the possibility that some music tracks are stored within the ROM's data but left unreferenced.

I know that first hand, since I found a lost track in a Sonic 3D prototype that could not be played by hacking the sound test entries. I had to locate its header, extract the music data and paste it over an indexed track in order to play it.

It was the only time I decided to look up for lost tracks and ended up with that one. For all we know there could be lost music data even in the compiler garbage present in some prototypes.

EDIT: I've just checked the Altered Beast SGC and... There's three music tracks missing in the VGMs. In this case, they're some speed variations for a couple of tunes, probably for internal testing.

EDIT 2: Just checked Sonic 2 and there's an unused melody in there that's not been documented anywhere. Have a listen at song #18.

EDIT 3: It also seems that the SMS version of Gigalopolis is still inside the GG Sonic Chaos ROM. Not sure if this was known.

I don't have a major issue with SGC, not least because an SGC to VGM converter wouldn't be that hard. Kevtris' insanity to rip that many games is plenty. However...

- it'd be nice to have a reasonably standard player (Winamp being the low threshold)
- multi tracks per file is a really unpleasant paradigm compared to all "normal" music files and the available workarounds are unpleasant
- it's still a barrier to music ripping

Random chunks of unused music data that aren't even referenced in a table is something that'll be hard to rip no matter what. The Sonic 2 set is a poor example since it's an "old style" rip without a music engine trigger check. When testing/speed variations/glitchy tracks appear we generally choose not to rip them because they're clearly not intended to be heard - we usually work on the principle that they're uninteresting. Cases where it's apparently fully-formed music that was just not used in the game, we rip. Still, it's a judgement call.

Just found an odd undocumented lost track in Alex Kidd in Shinobi World (#9), along with two lost jingles (#11 and #12).

Still amazed at this format.

Quote

- it'd be nice to have a reasonably standard player (Winamp being the low threshold)

Well, there's Winamp and Foobar plugins at the main topic where the format was announced.

Quote

- it's still a barrier to music ripping

Hey, so is having to hack the sound driver's trigger check, but people with knowledge do it regardless. It takes some time doing things this way, but on the other hand you get perfect results when finished.

Quote

- multi tracks per file is a really unpleasant paradigm compared to all "normal" music files and the available workarounds are unpleasant

Now that's just personal preference... Most of the game music formats for different systems (from ZX Spectrum to Amiga or NES) have always (or many times in the case of the Amiga) used this kind of all-tracks-in-one format.

It might be possible to split and join them somehow, anyway.

EDIT: There's another unused song in Astérix (#12) and another jingle that sounds like losing the last life (#15) that aren't included in the already available VGMs.

Jeez, almost every single game I've looked into has more hidden stuff we didn't know about. I really suggest you guys to check these out.

Author	Message
ICEknight Joined: 03 Apr 2001 Posts: 601 Location: Asturias	Original music formats preservation/playback Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 4:58 pm
	I was reading through the "problems with unreleased VGMs" topic and was kind of surprised to see that a relevant format like VGM still depends on manual trimming and looping nowadays. I understand that, this way, more people without technical knowledge will be able to obtain almost perfect rips of the music tracks, but it's still bound to have some accidental mistakes and, for example, any undocumented variations that the music could feature after many repeats (like Totaka's song easter egg in Nintendo's games) are always automatically lost, not to mention whole songs that might be completely unreferenced in the ROM but still stuck within the data (like the lost Sonic 3D boss tune I found). So I was thinking, wouldn't all these looping and silence problems, as well as any others, be automatically fixed if each of the music tracks and their sound driver were directly extracted and run through an emulator? I mean, just like NES and Game Boy music (which are taken straight from the game's code), only with many different sound drivers to be extracted as well. This is how Amiga music works, some of the music tracks share a well known music format, while some of them use an obscure one that had to be reverse engineered and emulated to be played. If so many people have been able to do such a thing with Amiga music, perhaps it's not that impossible to do with SMS and Mega Drive games, some of which having their sound drivers already documented and all. Do you guys think doing this for the sake of preserving the music untouched in their original formats would be just a worthless waste of time and effort? I myself think it would be very interesting having something like this, but featuring these contents.

Maxim Site Admin Joined: 19 Oct 1999 Posts: 14071 Location: London	Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:40 pm
	The reason we have VGMs instead of KSS (a format which supports SMS ripped music engines) is that VGMs are a lot easier to rip. Ripping music engines is hard and requires specialised knowledge, ripping VGMs is a lot easier to learn. Analysing music engines isn't that hard, but it's kind of boring - they change incrementally with time, and can be mostly guessed by the sound credit or developer, or by listening for similarities in the style.

mic_ Joined: 27 May 2008 Posts: 161	Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 5:49 am
mic_ Joined: 27 May 2008 Posts: 161	There's already a format like this for SMS/GG music: it's called SGC

thatawesomeguy Joined: 25 Jul 2007 Posts: 674 Location: Melbourne, Australia	Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:30 am
	Just for my own understanding, am I right that VGMs are essentially akin to MIDI files in that they log instructions for the sound chip rather than the sound itself?

mic_ Joined: 27 May 2008 Posts: 161	Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:47 am
mic_ Joined: 27 May 2008 Posts: 161	Yes.

ICEknight Joined: 03 Apr 2001 Posts: 601 Location: Asturias	Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:25 am
	mic_ wrote There's already a format like this for SMS/GG music: it's called SGC Okay. More than 300 perfect rips have been made already? That's officially awesome. Thanks so much for the link. To be honest, I can't believe that format is not getting some more support over here, since it's like the final step in faithfully storing and playing the game soundtracks. Also, according to the linked topic, that guy has even automated the process for games that use the SEGA sound driver. This format seems to have so much potential, and I hope that a Mega Drive variation of this could eventually be developed. Have you guys thought of releasing music packs in this format along with the VGMs?

Bock Site Admin Joined: 08 Jul 2001 Posts: 8444 Location: Paris, France	Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:43 pm
	I'd like to state something just to clarify, I think most VGM packs nowadays are created using music engine hacks to enumerate the songs so "secret" data are also uncovered if any.

ICEknight Joined: 03 Apr 2001 Posts: 601 Location: Asturias	Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 1:56 pm Last edited by ICEknight on Tue Aug 03, 2010 5:33 pm; edited 3 times in total
	Bock wrote I'd like to state something just to clarify, I think most VGM packs nowadays are created using music engine hacks to enumerate the songs so "secret" data are also uncovered if any. There's always the possibility that some music tracks are stored within the ROM's data but left unreferenced. I know that first hand, since I found a lost track in a Sonic 3D prototype that could not be played by hacking the sound test entries. I had to locate its header, extract the music data and paste it over an indexed track in order to play it. It was the only time I decided to look up for lost tracks and ended up with that one. For all we know there could be lost music data even in the compiler garbage present in some prototypes. EDIT: I've just checked the Altered Beast SGC and... There's three music tracks missing in the VGMs. In this case, they're some speed variations for a couple of tunes, probably for internal testing. EDIT 2: Just checked Sonic 2 and there's an unused melody in there that's not been documented anywhere. Have a listen at song #18. EDIT 3: It also seems that the SMS version of Gigalopolis is still inside the GG Sonic Chaos ROM. Not sure if this was known.

Maxim Site Admin Joined: 19 Oct 1999 Posts: 14071 Location: London	Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 5:30 pm
	I don't have a major issue with SGC, not least because an SGC to VGM converter wouldn't be that hard. Kevtris' insanity to rip that many games is plenty. However... - it'd be nice to have a reasonably standard player (Winamp being the low threshold) - multi tracks per file is a really unpleasant paradigm compared to all "normal" music files and the available workarounds are unpleasant - it's still a barrier to music ripping Random chunks of unused music data that aren't even referenced in a table is something that'll be hard to rip no matter what. The Sonic 2 set is a poor example since it's an "old style" rip without a music engine trigger check. When testing/speed variations/glitchy tracks appear we generally choose not to rip them because they're clearly not intended to be heard - we usually work on the principle that they're uninteresting. Cases where it's apparently fully-formed music that was just not used in the game, we rip. Still, it's a judgement call.

ICEknight Joined: 03 Apr 2001 Posts: 601 Location: Asturias	Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 6:37 pm
	Just found an odd undocumented lost track in Alex Kidd in Shinobi World (#9), along with two lost jingles (#11 and #12). Still amazed at this format. Quote - it'd be nice to have a reasonably standard player (Winamp being the low threshold) Well, there's Winamp and Foobar plugins at the main topic where the format was announced. Quote - it's still a barrier to music ripping Hey, so is having to hack the sound driver's trigger check, but people with knowledge do it regardless. It takes some time doing things this way, but on the other hand you get perfect results when finished. Quote - multi tracks per file is a really unpleasant paradigm compared to all "normal" music files and the available workarounds are unpleasant Now that's just personal preference... Most of the game music formats for different systems (from ZX Spectrum to Amiga or NES) have always (or many times in the case of the Amiga) used this kind of all-tracks-in-one format. It might be possible to split and join them somehow, anyway. EDIT: There's another unused song in Astérix (#12) and another jingle that sounds like losing the last life (#15) that aren't included in the already available VGMs. Jeez, almost every single game I've looked into has more hidden stuff we didn't know about. I really suggest you guys to check these out.

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