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Hi guys!
I just got my master system 2 and finished predator 2.
I noticed there's some sprite flickering has anybody else experienced that in this game?
I'm asking this because in the magazine they said there was no flickering and it's been years since I last played this in the 90s so I really can't remember if it had flickering or not. Could this be a hardware issue , cartridge related or is it plain normal?
Thanks everybody.

Sprite flickering is not something caused by hardware issues, it's part of the game.

Maxim wrote

Sprite flickering is not something caused by hardware issues, it's part of the game.

So basically they lied in the magazine because it has some small flickering specially when bullets start to fly a lot lol :D
Thanks for your reply Maxim :)

Magazines used to make a big deal about flickering. In reality, the video chip was limited; if games don't implement flickering then stuff can just disappear. This is almost never wanted.

It is in fact quite complicated to implement flickering sprites, especially to make the flickering consistent (so objects don't flicker partially), games spend a bunch of resources to make the flickering as visually pleasing as possible. The alternative is to not have much on-screen action, to avoid the sprite limit - which can be rather limiting for the game, for example Sonic tends not to have more than one enemy on-screen at a time.

Maxim wrote

Magazines used to make a big deal about flickering. In reality, the video chip was limited; if games don't implement flickering then stuff can just disappear. This is almost never wanted.

Yeah, there's no choice. no one likes to be hit by a totally invisible bullet, which is invisible just because the hardware couldn't draw that on screen.
Flicker is the only escape, even if -frankly- it sucks.

The flickering isn't horrible or anything. I was just wondering if it was normal to have flickering in this game or not because in the magazine they said it didn't have any flicker but Maxims right , it happens whenever there's a lot of characters on screen at the same time.
In Predator 2 the characters tend to disappear a tiny bit if there's a bit too much on screen just but it's nothing that will stop you from playing , i finished the game no problem and it was quite fun to play and least i didn't have the problem of being hit with invisible bullets , hope nobody else will have that problem with this game as it's quite a very good game and the music is awesome! :D

Quote

... if games don't implement flickering then stuff can just disappear. This is almost never wanted.

So Maxim , from what i understand is that the machine or the game have to flicker in order to show the extra sprites being drawn on the screen or else the one's in excess would completely disappear?

The graphic chip of the machine (the SMS' VDP) can display up to 8 sprites for each screen line (horizontal TV scanline) so any other sprite beside these won't appear. To avoid this, the game must implement some sort of (software) system to assure that the sprite(s) that won't be drawn won't always be the same, for instance by reordering the sprites at each frame. Some of the approaches might fail anyway, or behave badly, making the flicker more evident and disturbing.
With each new generation, consolles raised this limit. On a GBA, for instance, the chip can handle up to 128 8-pixel wide 'normal' sprites for each scanline with no problem whatsoever. Said that, I've seen GBA games where sprites can disappear...

If I may ask, does the GBA sprite width max out at 8 pixels? It seems a bit bizarre, if so.

Bigger sprites just waste more space on transparency.

Flygon wrote

If I may ask, does the GBA sprite width max out at 8 pixels? It seems a bit bizarre, if so.

Of course not, it was just to compare features. There are 8,16,32 and 64 pixel wide sprites, see all possible sprite sizes here.

I just got prince of persia and been playing it.
Sometimes there are parts that disappear slightly , for example on the sword fights some parts of the guards tend to disappear , or even the doors.
Some parts suffer of a slowdown when the screen is mostly filled with lamps , doors , spikes and stuff.
I had the look on a video from youtube and it doesn't to that but i suspect this is being played on an emulator which probably doesn't contain these limits. Is this correct?

Here's the video :

On about 4:07 seems to have a bit of a slowdown but it doesn't seem to have any kind of flickering at all. I'm assuming that the emulator does well at emulating it but so it doesn't seem to emulate all those flickering things , but i don't know , i'm no expert at this.

I think that this version is missing some cutscenes aswel , mainly the one where the princess drops the mouse , which actually shows up in the game to open the door to you. This would cause many people frustrated in the master system version because you wouldn't have a clue! lol

Only very good emulators are emulating CPU cycles and VDP quirks correctly. You should try Emulicious.

sverx wrote

Only very good emulators are emulating CPU cycles and VDP quirks correctly. You should try Emulicious.

Ah so that explains it. :)
Thanks buddy.

Most emulators remove the sprite limit as an option (often by default) because it improves so many games (although a few actually rely on it for some effects). People making YouTube videos are often not too bothered about this sort of thing.

Yes, that cutscene is missing, and it makes the mouse make less sense - although I think it is also possible to finish that level without seeing the mouse.

Maxim wrote

Most emulators remove the sprite limit as an option (often by default) because it improves so many games (although a few actually rely on it for some effects). People making YouTube videos are often not too bothered about this sort of thing.

Yes, that cutscene is missing, and it makes the mouse make less sense - although I think it is also possible to finish that level without seeing the mouse.

Hi Maxim!
Yeah , you're totally right!
On that mouse level some people are fast enough to open the level door and get past the slicers dead quick to get through before the door closes.
It's too bad Domark didn't put the princess / mouse cutscene , maybe it was memory restrictions but the game is brilliant anyways , least personally i love it.

Back to the original question, the Master System version doesn't like 60Hz, it introduces a lot of flicker. The GameGear version doesn't have this problem at 60Hz.

FluBBa wrote

Back to the original question, the Master System version doesn't like 60Hz, it introduces a lot of flicker. The GameGear version doesn't have this problem at 60Hz.

Mine's pal so it's running at 50hz isn't it?

Filipe Santos wrote

Mine's pal so it's running at 50hz isn't it?

un-modded PAL machines run at 50 Hz, NTSC at 60 Hz. Well, there's PAL-M @ 60 Hz in Brasil too...

sverx wrote

Filipe Santos wrote

Mine's pal so it's running at 50hz isn't it?

un-modded PAL machines run at 50 Hz, NTSC at 60 Hz. Well, there's PAL-M @ 60 Hz in Brasil too...

Thanks Sverx!
Yeah , mine's just a normal pal-I i think , united kingdom version. :)

FluBBa wrote

Back to the original question, the Master System version doesn't like 60Hz, it introduces a lot of flicker. The GameGear version doesn't have this problem at 60Hz.

Yeah now that I've played more games on the system , flickering is pretty much common , specially when there's a lot of stuff on the same line. Doesnt bother me anymore tho , that's how the machine works.

The Sonic games on Master System have flickering too. Very common, xD.

Author	Message
Filipe Santos Joined: 27 Feb 2017 Posts: 145 Location: Northern Ireland	Predator 2 sprite flickering? Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 5:49 pm
	Hi guys! I just got my master system 2 and finished predator 2. I noticed there's some sprite flickering has anybody else experienced that in this game? I'm asking this because in the magazine they said there was no flickering and it's been years since I last played this in the 90s so I really can't remember if it had flickering or not. Could this be a hardware issue , cartridge related or is it plain normal? Thanks everybody.

Maxim Site Admin Joined: 19 Oct 1999 Posts: 14735 Location: London	Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 8:17 pm
	Sprite flickering is not something caused by hardware issues, it's part of the game.

Filipe Santos Joined: 27 Feb 2017 Posts: 145 Location: Northern Ireland	Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 8:31 pm
	Maxim wrote Sprite flickering is not something caused by hardware issues, it's part of the game. So basically they lied in the magazine because it has some small flickering specially when bullets start to fly a lot lol :D Thanks for your reply Maxim :)

Maxim Site Admin Joined: 19 Oct 1999 Posts: 14735 Location: London	Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 11:01 pm
	Magazines used to make a big deal about flickering. In reality, the video chip was limited; if games don't implement flickering then stuff can just disappear. This is almost never wanted. It is in fact quite complicated to implement flickering sprites, especially to make the flickering consistent (so objects don't flicker partially), games spend a bunch of resources to make the flickering as visually pleasing as possible. The alternative is to not have much on-screen action, to avoid the sprite limit - which can be rather limiting for the game, for example Sonic tends not to have more than one enemy on-screen at a time.

sverx Joined: 05 Sep 2013 Posts: 3823 Location: Stockholm, Sweden	Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:49 am
	Maxim wrote Magazines used to make a big deal about flickering. In reality, the video chip was limited; if games don't implement flickering then stuff can just disappear. This is almost never wanted. Yeah, there's no choice. no one likes to be hit by a totally invisible bullet, which is invisible just because the hardware couldn't draw that on screen. Flicker is the only escape, even if -frankly- it sucks.

Filipe Santos Joined: 27 Feb 2017 Posts: 145 Location: Northern Ireland	Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 12:14 pm
	The flickering isn't horrible or anything. I was just wondering if it was normal to have flickering in this game or not because in the magazine they said it didn't have any flicker but Maxims right , it happens whenever there's a lot of characters on screen at the same time. In Predator 2 the characters tend to disappear a tiny bit if there's a bit too much on screen just but it's nothing that will stop you from playing , i finished the game no problem and it was quite fun to play and least i didn't have the problem of being hit with invisible bullets , hope nobody else will have that problem with this game as it's quite a very good game and the music is awesome! :D Quote ... if games don't implement flickering then stuff can just disappear. This is almost never wanted. So Maxim , from what i understand is that the machine or the game have to flicker in order to show the extra sprites being drawn on the screen or else the one's in excess would completely disappear?

sverx Joined: 05 Sep 2013 Posts: 3823 Location: Stockholm, Sweden	Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 2:19 pm Last edited by sverx on Sun Mar 05, 2017 11:45 am; edited 1 time in total
	The graphic chip of the machine (the SMS' VDP) can display up to 8 sprites for each screen line (horizontal TV scanline) so any other sprite beside these won't appear. To avoid this, the game must implement some sort of (software) system to assure that the sprite(s) that won't be drawn won't always be the same, for instance by reordering the sprites at each frame. Some of the approaches might fail anyway, or behave badly, making the flicker more evident and disturbing. With each new generation, consolles raised this limit. On a GBA, for instance, the chip can handle up to 128 8-pixel wide 'normal' sprites for each scanline with no problem whatsoever. Said that, I've seen GBA games where sprites can disappear...

Flygon Joined: 30 Jun 2016 Posts: 196 Location: Melbourne, Australia	Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 5:32 am
	If I may ask, does the GBA sprite width max out at 8 pixels? It seems a bit bizarre, if so.

Maxim Site Admin Joined: 19 Oct 1999 Posts: 14735 Location: London	Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 7:00 am
	Bigger sprites just waste more space on transparency.

sverx Joined: 05 Sep 2013 Posts: 3823 Location: Stockholm, Sweden	Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 10:40 am
	Flygon wrote If I may ask, does the GBA sprite width max out at 8 pixels? It seems a bit bizarre, if so. Of course not, it was just to compare features. There are 8,16,32 and 64 pixel wide sprites, see all possible sprite sizes here.

Filipe Santos Joined: 27 Feb 2017 Posts: 145 Location: Northern Ireland	Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 3:29 pm
	I just got prince of persia and been playing it. Sometimes there are parts that disappear slightly , for example on the sword fights some parts of the guards tend to disappear , or even the doors. Some parts suffer of a slowdown when the screen is mostly filled with lamps , doors , spikes and stuff. I had the look on a video from youtube and it doesn't to that but i suspect this is being played on an emulator which probably doesn't contain these limits. Is this correct? Here's the video : On about 4:07 seems to have a bit of a slowdown but it doesn't seem to have any kind of flickering at all. I'm assuming that the emulator does well at emulating it but so it doesn't seem to emulate all those flickering things , but i don't know , i'm no expert at this. I think that this version is missing some cutscenes aswel , mainly the one where the princess drops the mouse , which actually shows up in the game to open the door to you. This would cause many people frustrated in the master system version because you wouldn't have a clue! lol

sverx Joined: 05 Sep 2013 Posts: 3823 Location: Stockholm, Sweden	Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 6:56 pm
	Only very good emulators are emulating CPU cycles and VDP quirks correctly. You should try Emulicious.

Filipe Santos Joined: 27 Feb 2017 Posts: 145 Location: Northern Ireland	Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 7:03 pm
	sverx wrote Only very good emulators are emulating CPU cycles and VDP quirks correctly. You should try Emulicious. Ah so that explains it. :) Thanks buddy.

Maxim Site Admin Joined: 19 Oct 1999 Posts: 14735 Location: London	Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:05 pm
	Most emulators remove the sprite limit as an option (often by default) because it improves so many games (although a few actually rely on it for some effects). People making YouTube videos are often not too bothered about this sort of thing. Yes, that cutscene is missing, and it makes the mouse make less sense - although I think it is also possible to finish that level without seeing the mouse.

Filipe Santos Joined: 27 Feb 2017 Posts: 145 Location: Northern Ireland	Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 9:13 am
	Maxim wrote Most emulators remove the sprite limit as an option (often by default) because it improves so many games (although a few actually rely on it for some effects). People making YouTube videos are often not too bothered about this sort of thing. Yes, that cutscene is missing, and it makes the mouse make less sense - although I think it is also possible to finish that level without seeing the mouse. Hi Maxim! Yeah , you're totally right! On that mouse level some people are fast enough to open the level door and get past the slicers dead quick to get through before the door closes. It's too bad Domark didn't put the princess / mouse cutscene , maybe it was memory restrictions but the game is brilliant anyways , least personally i love it.

FluBBa Joined: 21 Jul 2005 Posts: 412 Location: GBG	Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 9:18 am
FluBBa Joined: 21 Jul 2005 Posts: 412 Location: GBG	Back to the original question, the Master System version doesn't like 60Hz, it introduces a lot of flicker. The GameGear version doesn't have this problem at 60Hz.

Filipe Santos Joined: 27 Feb 2017 Posts: 145 Location: Northern Ireland	Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 9:26 am
	FluBBa wrote Back to the original question, the Master System version doesn't like 60Hz, it introduces a lot of flicker. The GameGear version doesn't have this problem at 60Hz. Mine's pal so it's running at 50hz isn't it?

sverx Joined: 05 Sep 2013 Posts: 3823 Location: Stockholm, Sweden	Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 9:37 am
	Filipe Santos wrote Mine's pal so it's running at 50hz isn't it? un-modded PAL machines run at 50 Hz, NTSC at 60 Hz. Well, there's PAL-M @ 60 Hz in Brasil too...

Filipe Santos Joined: 27 Feb 2017 Posts: 145 Location: Northern Ireland	Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 9:55 am
	sverx wrote Filipe Santos wrote Mine's pal so it's running at 50hz isn't it? un-modded PAL machines run at 50 Hz, NTSC at 60 Hz. Well, there's PAL-M @ 60 Hz in Brasil too... Thanks Sverx! Yeah , mine's just a normal pal-I i think , united kingdom version. :)

Filipe Santos Joined: 27 Feb 2017 Posts: 145 Location: Northern Ireland	Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:55 am
	FluBBa wrote Back to the original question, the Master System version doesn't like 60Hz, it introduces a lot of flicker. The GameGear version doesn't have this problem at 60Hz. Yeah now that I've played more games on the system , flickering is pretty much common , specially when there's a lot of stuff on the same line. Doesnt bother me anymore tho , that's how the machine works.

tailsnic Joined: 17 Mar 2017 Posts: 46 Location: Spain	Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:57 pm
tailsnic Joined: 17 Mar 2017 Posts: 46 Location: Spain	The Sonic games on Master System have flickering too. Very common, xD.

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