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Hi,

I'd like to know what do you think about connecting the SMS1 with the composite video out wires connected to a AV->VGA active converter (cheap one can find on ebay) to a 4:3 vga pc monitor. Will I get the same good quality of a native composite input on a TV?

I've seen also some AV>HDMI converter but I think they'll output a 720p 16:9 resolution and I'd like to use a 4:3 monitor.
Thank

I'd be interested in the results as well.

Some time ago I bought a cheap AV/VGA converter from eBay (*) for a friend. He wanted to replace his defective 4:3 CRT with a 4:3 LCD with VGA input. The video quality (480i) is quite good actually (better than on the CRT, especially the geometric aspects). I wonder, what it would do with 240p.

Comparing NTSC/60Hz with PAL/50Hz could also be interesting...

(*) It was a Ligawo brand, the output resolution could be selected between 640x480, 800×600, 1024×768 at 60/75Hz and 1280×1024, 1440×900, 1680×1050, 1920x1080, 1920x1200 at 60Hz

Knaeckebrot wrote

I'd be interested in the results as well.

Some time ago I bought a cheap AV/VGA converter from eBay (*) for a friend. He wanted to replace his defective 4:3 CRT with a 4:3 LCD with VGA input. The video quality (480i) is quite good actually (better than on the CRT, especially the geometric aspects). I wonder, what it would do with 240p.

Comparing NTSC/60Hz with PAL/50Hz could also be interesting...

(*) It was a Ligawo brand, the output resolution could be selected between 640x480, 800×600, 1024×768 at 60/75Hz and 1280×1024, 1440×900, 1680×1050, 1920x1080, 1920x1200 at 60Hz

I remember a similar/same converter (the opposite vga>av) with good results on the output vga maybe with a bit of analog background noise compared to the original.
But also considering most resolutions in these lcd are @ 60hz, I don't know how a PAL SMS would work @ 60hz.

I guess it is either a line multiplier or it has a frame buffer. The former has limited capabilities but can be real-time, the latter introduces latency, which can be quite pronounced.

Maxim wrote

I guess it is either a line multiplier or it has a frame buffer. The former has limited capabilities but can be real-time, the latter introduces latency, which can be quite pronounced.

Thanks, I didn't think about the possible latency. Need to look for info about this possibility.

386DX wrote

Thanks, I didn't think about the possible latency. Need to look for info about this possibility.

Shortly I will test a cheap RGB->HDMI-converter, I'm curious how this performes compared with the internal converter of my Samsung LCD TV. But latency and handling of 240p is probably not the best (the Samsung's performance though is quite solid in terms of latency). But the OSSC for example is still not that cheap, which would be clearly the better option (with line doubling to 480p and trippling to 720p which most TV's can handle well).

Your variant using a VGA-monitor is maybe an interesting alternative for a affordable solution?

I have good luck using an OSSC attached to a lag-free HDMI > VGA converter.

Only real downside is is that it becomes quite expensive. Good way to get them sharp RGB on monitors that don't do 15kHz signals, however.

Flygon wrote

I have good luck using an OSSC attached to a lag-free HDMI > VGA converter.

Only real downside is is that it becomes quite expensive. Good way to get them sharp RGB on monitors that don't do 15kHz signals, however.

Can you explain better? And how could I connect the RGB signal (not composite) to a converter?
I was thinking about the classic composite cable cause I don't know if any RGB->VGA converters exist.

I would question why would you use composite when you can go RGB to an adapter/scaler. You have a SMS1. Why not take advantage of its multi out port?

I've used composite to HDMI adapters before. Usually either the same quality or worse. Same with composite wired scart to HDMI. I found each of them has their quirks. But they were no better than plugging composite straight to a TV.

If you're set on outputting VGA maybe have a look at a GBS8200. Provided you don't mind some light soldering and the DIY approach. It should set you under $100 for the scaler and required parts. It's cheaper than the ossc/framemeister. Far better quality than those adapters on eBay.

386DX wrote

Hi,

I'd like to know what do you think about connecting the SMS1 with the composite video out wires connected to a AV->VGA active converter (cheap one can find on ebay) to a 4:3 vga pc monitor. Will I get the same good quality of a native composite input on a TV?

I've seen also some AV>HDMI converter but I think they'll output a 720p 16:9 resolution and I'd like to use a 4:3 monitor.
Thank

k4l wrote

I would question why would you use composite when you can go RGB to an adapter/scaler. You have a SMS1. Why not take advantage of its multi out port?

I've used composite to HDMI adapters before. Usually either the same quality or worse. Same with composite wired scart to HDMI. I found each of them has their quirks. But they were no better than plugging composite straight to a TV.

If you're set on outputting VGA maybe have a look at a GBS8200. Provided you don't mind some light soldering and the DIY approach. It should set you under $100 for the scaler and required parts. It's cheaper than the ossc/framemeister. Far better quality than those adapters on eBay.

386DX wrote

Hi,

I'd like to know what do you think about connecting the SMS1 with the composite video out wires connected to a AV->VGA active converter (cheap one can find on ebay) to a 4:3 vga pc monitor. Will I get the same good quality of a native composite input on a TV?

I've seen also some AV>HDMI converter but I think they'll output a 720p 16:9 resolution and I'd like to use a 4:3 monitor.
Thank

Cause I modded the SMS1 at the multi-port with wires for the composite and audio but in the case of choosing the RGB I will remove the modification (just some wires soldered without any plastic mod) and buy the usual RGB cable.

I've seen that GBS8200 converter and it looks good and cheap.
And what about latency? That's probably the most important thing cause old 4:3 LCD already had quiet high latency.
I was reading online that there could be some visual noise when a 50Hz source is connected to a 60Hz monitor; I wasn't thinking to this problem too..

If you're using an old LCD there would be more issues than just input lag. I would say panels that are older than 10 years tend to have a fair bit of ghosting/motion blur to them.

GBS8200 should have about 1-2 frames of lag. Then take into consideration about your monitors input lag too.

As for noise. I guess its something you have to take into consideration.
The GBS8200 has more documentation online than some random adapter/cable from ebay.

Maybe picking up a small CRT TV might be a better option and just using composite out for that? At least you wont have to worry about input/display lag.

I have one of the cheap "video to VGA" converters that can be found on eBay (they have a composite and S-Video input port, two VGA ports at right angles to each other, and a row of small buttons to adjust settings).

They're pretty decent for 480i/576i content and input latency is low enough for games to be playable but they are locked to 60Hz or 75Hz output (resulting in annoying motion judder when fed a 50Hz signal) and can't handle 288p properly (see attached screenshot for what happens - it looks like scanlines are swapped around). I would therefore not recommend them for older PAL consoles.

0x1fWsC.jpg (130.13 KB)

benryves wrote

I have one of the cheap "video to VGA" converters that can be found on eBay (they have a composite and S-Video input port, two VGA ports at right angles to each other, and a row of small buttons to adjust settings).

They're pretty decent for 480i/576i content and input latency is low enough for games to be playable but they are locked to 60Hz or 75Hz output (resulting in annoying motion judder when fed a 50Hz signal) and can't handle 288p properly (see attached screenshot for what happens - it looks like scanlines are swapped around). I would therefore not recommend them for older PAL consoles.

Thank you, I think that after all I'll problably consider the CRT monitor or maybe an old CRT TV to use as monitor for the console in the usual RGB connection cause it seems like more problems than benefits going for the vga choice.
As often in past I still think CRT technology with all its problems imho to have many advantages on the LCD with these low resolutions signals.

Yep. Well VGA input is a different beast than composite input too. It has its own set of resolutions and refresh rates to think of.

A standard CRT will be better suited. Most likely cheaper than converters and upscalers.

Don't get me wrong. I love my line doublers and upscalers. Infact that's what I mainly game on. But the move from composite and then convert to VGA wouldn't give you the best output.

k4l wrote

Yep. Well VGA input is a different beast than composite input too. It has its own set of resolutions and refresh rates to think of.

A standard CRT will be better suited. Most likely cheaper than converters and upscalers.

Don't get me wrong. I love my line doublers and upscalers. Infact that's what I mainly game on. But the move from composite and then convert to VGA wouldn't give you the best output.

Thanks; the original idea was to use an old lcd 4:3 and not use the usual big tv lcd not designed for this low resolutions. But I imagine the CRT technology still is more than enough if not better than the LCD.

I just gathered some experience with the OSSC, best picture quality of all the options I tried so far and virtually no input lag (which you can't say about the Framemeister). The current model not only has line doubling (240p => 480p, 288p => 576p), but also x3 (720p on NTSC), x4 (960p) and x5 (you can choose 1080p or 1200/1440p).

Author	Message
386DX Joined: 13 Jun 2017 Posts: 96	SMS and AV to VGA converter Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:49 am
386DX Joined: 13 Jun 2017 Posts: 96	Hi, I'd like to know what do you think about connecting the SMS1 with the composite video out wires connected to a AV->VGA active converter (cheap one can find on ebay) to a 4:3 vga pc monitor. Will I get the same good quality of a native composite input on a TV? I've seen also some AV>HDMI converter but I think they'll output a 720p 16:9 resolution and I'd like to use a 4:3 monitor. Thank

Knaeckebrot Joined: 03 Aug 2017 Posts: 61 Location: Munich	Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:52 pm
	I'd be interested in the results as well. Some time ago I bought a cheap AV/VGA converter from eBay () for a friend. He wanted to replace his defective 4:3 CRT with a 4:3 LCD with VGA input. The video quality (480i) is quite good actually (better than on the CRT, especially the geometric aspects). I wonder, what it would do with 240p. Comparing NTSC/60Hz with PAL/50Hz could also be interesting... () It was a Ligawo brand, the output resolution could be selected between 640x480, 800×600, 1024×768 at 60/75Hz and 1280×1024, 1440×900, 1680×1050, 1920x1080, 1920x1200 at 60Hz

386DX Joined: 13 Jun 2017 Posts: 96	Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:24 pm
386DX Joined: 13 Jun 2017 Posts: 96	Knaeckebrot wrote I'd be interested in the results as well. Some time ago I bought a cheap AV/VGA converter from eBay () for a friend. He wanted to replace his defective 4:3 CRT with a 4:3 LCD with VGA input. The video quality (480i) is quite good actually (better than on the CRT, especially the geometric aspects). I wonder, what it would do with 240p. Comparing NTSC/60Hz with PAL/50Hz could also be interesting... () It was a Ligawo brand, the output resolution could be selected between 640x480, 800×600, 1024×768 at 60/75Hz and 1280×1024, 1440×900, 1680×1050, 1920x1080, 1920x1200 at 60Hz I remember a similar/same converter (the opposite vga>av) with good results on the output vga maybe with a bit of analog background noise compared to the original. But also considering most resolutions in these lcd are @ 60hz, I don't know how a PAL SMS would work @ 60hz.

Maxim Site Admin Joined: 19 Oct 1999 Posts: 14738 Location: London	Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:17 pm
	I guess it is either a line multiplier or it has a frame buffer. The former has limited capabilities but can be real-time, the latter introduces latency, which can be quite pronounced.

386DX Joined: 13 Jun 2017 Posts: 96	Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:04 pm
386DX Joined: 13 Jun 2017 Posts: 96	Maxim wrote I guess it is either a line multiplier or it has a frame buffer. The former has limited capabilities but can be real-time, the latter introduces latency, which can be quite pronounced. Thanks, I didn't think about the possible latency. Need to look for info about this possibility.

Knaeckebrot Joined: 03 Aug 2017 Posts: 61 Location: Munich	Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:09 pm
	386DX wrote Thanks, I didn't think about the possible latency. Need to look for info about this possibility. Shortly I will test a cheap RGB->HDMI-converter, I'm curious how this performes compared with the internal converter of my Samsung LCD TV. But latency and handling of 240p is probably not the best (the Samsung's performance though is quite solid in terms of latency). But the OSSC for example is still not that cheap, which would be clearly the better option (with line doubling to 480p and trippling to 720p which most TV's can handle well). Your variant using a VGA-monitor is maybe an interesting alternative for a affordable solution?

Flygon Joined: 30 Jun 2016 Posts: 196 Location: Melbourne, Australia	Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:31 am
	I have good luck using an OSSC attached to a lag-free HDMI > VGA converter. Only real downside is is that it becomes quite expensive. Good way to get them sharp RGB on monitors that don't do 15kHz signals, however.

386DX Joined: 13 Jun 2017 Posts: 96	Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:10 am
386DX Joined: 13 Jun 2017 Posts: 96	Flygon wrote I have good luck using an OSSC attached to a lag-free HDMI > VGA converter. Only real downside is is that it becomes quite expensive. Good way to get them sharp RGB on monitors that don't do 15kHz signals, however. Can you explain better? And how could I connect the RGB signal (not composite) to a converter? I was thinking about the classic composite cable cause I don't know if any RGB->VGA converters exist.

k4l Joined: 14 Mar 2016 Posts: 58 Location: Australia	Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:34 am
k4l Joined: 14 Mar 2016 Posts: 58 Location: Australia	I would question why would you use composite when you can go RGB to an adapter/scaler. You have a SMS1. Why not take advantage of its multi out port? I've used composite to HDMI adapters before. Usually either the same quality or worse. Same with composite wired scart to HDMI. I found each of them has their quirks. But they were no better than plugging composite straight to a TV. If you're set on outputting VGA maybe have a look at a GBS8200. Provided you don't mind some light soldering and the DIY approach. It should set you under $100 for the scaler and required parts. It's cheaper than the ossc/framemeister. Far better quality than those adapters on eBay. 386DX wrote Hi, I'd like to know what do you think about connecting the SMS1 with the composite video out wires connected to a AV->VGA active converter (cheap one can find on ebay) to a 4:3 vga pc monitor. Will I get the same good quality of a native composite input on a TV? I've seen also some AV>HDMI converter but I think they'll output a 720p 16:9 resolution and I'd like to use a 4:3 monitor. Thank

386DX Joined: 13 Jun 2017 Posts: 96	Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:11 am
386DX Joined: 13 Jun 2017 Posts: 96	k4l wrote I would question why would you use composite when you can go RGB to an adapter/scaler. You have a SMS1. Why not take advantage of its multi out port? I've used composite to HDMI adapters before. Usually either the same quality or worse. Same with composite wired scart to HDMI. I found each of them has their quirks. But they were no better than plugging composite straight to a TV. If you're set on outputting VGA maybe have a look at a GBS8200. Provided you don't mind some light soldering and the DIY approach. It should set you under $100 for the scaler and required parts. It's cheaper than the ossc/framemeister. Far better quality than those adapters on eBay. 386DX wrote Hi, I'd like to know what do you think about connecting the SMS1 with the composite video out wires connected to a AV->VGA active converter (cheap one can find on ebay) to a 4:3 vga pc monitor. Will I get the same good quality of a native composite input on a TV? I've seen also some AV>HDMI converter but I think they'll output a 720p 16:9 resolution and I'd like to use a 4:3 monitor. Thank Cause I modded the SMS1 at the multi-port with wires for the composite and audio but in the case of choosing the RGB I will remove the modification (just some wires soldered without any plastic mod) and buy the usual RGB cable. I've seen that GBS8200 converter and it looks good and cheap. And what about latency? That's probably the most important thing cause old 4:3 LCD already had quiet high latency. I was reading online that there could be some visual noise when a 50Hz source is connected to a 60Hz monitor; I wasn't thinking to this problem too..

k4l Joined: 14 Mar 2016 Posts: 58 Location: Australia	Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:59 pm
k4l Joined: 14 Mar 2016 Posts: 58 Location: Australia	If you're using an old LCD there would be more issues than just input lag. I would say panels that are older than 10 years tend to have a fair bit of ghosting/motion blur to them. GBS8200 should have about 1-2 frames of lag. Then take into consideration about your monitors input lag too. As for noise. I guess its something you have to take into consideration. The GBS8200 has more documentation online than some random adapter/cable from ebay. Maybe picking up a small CRT TV might be a better option and just using composite out for that? At least you wont have to worry about input/display lag.

benryves Joined: 12 Apr 2005 Posts: 391 Location: London, United Kingdom	Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:33 pm
	I have one of the cheap "video to VGA" converters that can be found on eBay (they have a composite and S-Video input port, two VGA ports at right angles to each other, and a row of small buttons to adjust settings). They're pretty decent for 480i/576i content and input latency is low enough for games to be playable but they are locked to 60Hz or 75Hz output (resulting in annoying motion judder when fed a 50Hz signal) and can't handle 288p properly (see attached screenshot for what happens - it looks like scanlines are swapped around). I would therefore not recommend them for older PAL consoles. 0x1fWsC.jpg (130.13 KB)

386DX Joined: 13 Jun 2017 Posts: 96	Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 6:39 pm
386DX Joined: 13 Jun 2017 Posts: 96	benryves wrote I have one of the cheap "video to VGA" converters that can be found on eBay (they have a composite and S-Video input port, two VGA ports at right angles to each other, and a row of small buttons to adjust settings). They're pretty decent for 480i/576i content and input latency is low enough for games to be playable but they are locked to 60Hz or 75Hz output (resulting in annoying motion judder when fed a 50Hz signal) and can't handle 288p properly (see attached screenshot for what happens - it looks like scanlines are swapped around). I would therefore not recommend them for older PAL consoles. Thank you, I think that after all I'll problably consider the CRT monitor or maybe an old CRT TV to use as monitor for the console in the usual RGB connection cause it seems like more problems than benefits going for the vga choice. As often in past I still think CRT technology with all its problems imho to have many advantages on the LCD with these low resolutions signals.

k4l Joined: 14 Mar 2016 Posts: 58 Location: Australia	Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:39 am
k4l Joined: 14 Mar 2016 Posts: 58 Location: Australia	Yep. Well VGA input is a different beast than composite input too. It has its own set of resolutions and refresh rates to think of. A standard CRT will be better suited. Most likely cheaper than converters and upscalers. Don't get me wrong. I love my line doublers and upscalers. Infact that's what I mainly game on. But the move from composite and then convert to VGA wouldn't give you the best output.

386DX Joined: 13 Jun 2017 Posts: 96	Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:02 pm
386DX Joined: 13 Jun 2017 Posts: 96	k4l wrote Yep. Well VGA input is a different beast than composite input too. It has its own set of resolutions and refresh rates to think of. A standard CRT will be better suited. Most likely cheaper than converters and upscalers. Don't get me wrong. I love my line doublers and upscalers. Infact that's what I mainly game on. But the move from composite and then convert to VGA wouldn't give you the best output. Thanks; the original idea was to use an old lcd 4:3 and not use the usual big tv lcd not designed for this low resolutions. But I imagine the CRT technology still is more than enough if not better than the LCD.

Knaeckebrot Joined: 03 Aug 2017 Posts: 61 Location: Munich	Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:25 pm
	I just gathered some experience with the OSSC, best picture quality of all the options I tried so far and virtually no input lag (which you can't say about the Framemeister). The current model not only has line doubling (240p => 480p, 288p => 576p), but also x3 (720p on NTSC), x4 (960p) and x5 (you can choose 1080p or 1200/1440p).

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