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Hi,

My friend vingazole is searching/testing a sample player for my Cimmerian dev.

Recently, we tried GP Rider
http://www.smspower.org/forums/15940-GameSamplesExtractionMegaThread#90667

and Chessmaster
http://www.smspower.org/forums/15940-GameSamplesExtractionMegaThread?start=50#91...

Surprisingly the rendering is completely different between Master System 1 and 2...

on MS1 (and Megadrive) the sample is really clear/nice.
on MS2 its very noisy (like what you hear on emulators, plus seems to be lower).

Maybe people like Maxim, Sverx have some supposition on the code side, and hardware mens like Charles McDonald, Eviltim or Tmee on the technical side.

Thanks !

Chessmaster.sms.zip (78.25 KB)

chessmaster (gg to sms convert)

gpr_sample.sms.zip (18.71 KB)

gp-rider (extracted sample/player)

That's unexpected. Can you try Heliophobe's PSG tester at high frequencies and see what it does? All my testing was on an SMS2 (my original one from the 90s).

GP Rider uses an 8 bit sample underneath and I'm just converting the format to WAV, so it sounds like the SMS1 is applying some filtering.

I've tested heliophobe's PSG soft but i do not know what i should do with it...

So, i've taken the LUT from Robocop vs Terminator and samples are far more clearer than before (emulator and real SMS 2 hardware, a little bit more clean on SMS 1)

I've tried some LUT :
- GP rider
- Chessmaster
- Ecco
- Robocop vs terminator

Only RvsT is really "clean".
Others produce nrarly all the same output with a lot of noise.
These LUTs are coded on 4 bytes, but can be on 3 to save 256 bytes as noise channel is not used.

My samples are at 11025hz

Maxim, is it possible to generate a cleaner LUT than the one used by RvsT ?
Maybe you know other games (GG ?) which are using LUT (3 or 4 bytes) for PCM

1024bytes_LUTs.zip (4.21 KB)

Extracted LUTs

SAMPLES_wip_RvsT_LUT.sms.zip (29.73 KB)

PCM with RvsT LUT

SAMPLES_wip_GPrider_LUT.sms.zip (29.78 KB)

PCM with GP Rider LUT

SAMPLES_wip_Ecco_LUT.sms.zip (29.81 KB)

PCM with Ecco LUT

SAMPLES_wip_Chessmaster_LUT.sms.zip (29.83 KB)

PCM with Chessmaster LUT

Use pcmenc, it beats any LUT. However, mastering for loudness is hard, and the biggest determinant of quality is still sample rate (and data size).

I think I graphed all the LUTs in my sample extraction thread. They naturally suffer from the intermediate state during updates, which pcmenc is designed to minimise. You could probably brute force an optimal LUT given assumptions about the perfection of the volume table (the SMS2 one seems to truncate the loudest ones, for example).

Author	Message
ichigobankai Joined: 04 Jul 2010 Posts: 540 Location: Angers, France	Sample rendering on MS I and MS II Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:59 pm
	Hi, My friend vingazole is searching/testing a sample player for my Cimmerian dev. Recently, we tried GP Rider http://www.smspower.org/forums/15940-GameSamplesExtractionMegaThread#90667 and Chessmaster http://www.smspower.org/forums/15940-GameSamplesExtractionMegaThread?start=50#91... Surprisingly the rendering is completely different between Master System 1 and 2... on MS1 (and Megadrive) the sample is really clear/nice. on MS2 its very noisy (like what you hear on emulators, plus seems to be lower). Maybe people like Maxim, Sverx have some supposition on the code side, and hardware mens like Charles McDonald, Eviltim or Tmee on the technical side. Thanks ! Chessmaster.sms.zip (78.25 KB) chessmaster (gg to sms convert) gpr_sample.sms.zip (18.71 KB) gp-rider (extracted sample/player)

Maxim Site Admin Joined: 19 Oct 1999 Posts: 14740 Location: London	Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 4:29 pm
	That's unexpected. Can you try Heliophobe's PSG tester at high frequencies and see what it does? All my testing was on an SMS2 (my original one from the 90s). GP Rider uses an 8 bit sample underneath and I'm just converting the format to WAV, so it sounds like the SMS1 is applying some filtering.

ichigobankai Joined: 04 Jul 2010 Posts: 540 Location: Angers, France	Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:42 pm
	I've tested heliophobe's PSG soft but i do not know what i should do with it... So, i've taken the LUT from Robocop vs Terminator and samples are far more clearer than before (emulator and real SMS 2 hardware, a little bit more clean on SMS 1) I've tried some LUT : - GP rider - Chessmaster - Ecco - Robocop vs terminator Only RvsT is really "clean". Others produce nrarly all the same output with a lot of noise. These LUTs are coded on 4 bytes, but can be on 3 to save 256 bytes as noise channel is not used. My samples are at 11025hz Maxim, is it possible to generate a cleaner LUT than the one used by RvsT ? Maybe you know other games (GG ?) which are using LUT (3 or 4 bytes) for PCM 1024bytes_LUTs.zip (4.21 KB) Extracted LUTs SAMPLES_wip_RvsT_LUT.sms.zip (29.73 KB) PCM with RvsT LUT SAMPLES_wip_GPrider_LUT.sms.zip (29.78 KB) PCM with GP Rider LUT SAMPLES_wip_Ecco_LUT.sms.zip (29.81 KB) PCM with Ecco LUT SAMPLES_wip_Chessmaster_LUT.sms.zip (29.83 KB) PCM with Chessmaster LUT

Maxim Site Admin Joined: 19 Oct 1999 Posts: 14740 Location: London	Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:37 pm
	Use pcmenc, it beats any LUT. However, mastering for loudness is hard, and the biggest determinant of quality is still sample rate (and data size). I think I graphed all the LUTs in my sample extraction thread. They naturally suffer from the intermediate state during updates, which pcmenc is designed to minimise. You could probably brute force an optimal LUT given assumptions about the perfection of the volume table (the SMS2 one seems to truncate the loudest ones, for example).

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