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  • Joined: 09 Oct 2012
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Integrate Sega 3D Adapter into Genesis
Post Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:45 pm
I'm looking to take the SMS 3D glasses board and solder it directly to the Genesis 1 motherboard. Then, I plan on using the Genesis front headphone input for the 3D glasses. I stared working on it over the weekend, used a SMS to Genesis schematic I downloaded and soldered all the pins.

I'm not the best at soldering, so it took forever...about three hours for all 60 pins (30ish pins, have to solder both ends).
I powered it on and the 3D glasses did not work at first. They turned on and the right eye went dark while the left eye stayed normal looking.

Then, out of the blue, they started working. I played Space Harrier 3D for a few minutes and everything was perfect. I didn't touch anything, they just started working! I turned the Genesis off and back on again...and they didn't work and haven't worked since.

Genesis games, as well as Master System games (via the Power Base Converter) still work fine, so I didn't damage the Genesis. SMS Card games will not work, but I assumed that would be the case.

Does anyone have any thoughts about this? Do some of the cables need a capacitor or something?

I really wish I could find out which pins the 3D glasses adapter uses, so I can concentrate on those and not all 35. Can anyone offer any assistance?
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Post Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:17 pm
I just realized that the Japanese version of the console called "MK-2000" had the 3D adapter built in. Does anyone have one of these, or have a wiring diagram of it? I imagine it would be much easier to figure out what I need by looking at one of those.
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Post Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 6:35 am
Here's a board scan:

http://www.smspower.org/Development/JapaneseMasterSystemICBOARDM4JMAIN837-6418

The 3D glasses use power, address lines (most but not all) and D0. But I can't guarantee that's all.
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Post Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 12:23 pm
Maxim wrote
Here's a board scan:

The 3D glasses use power, address lines (most but not all) and D0. But I can't guarantee that's all.


Thank you so much for posting that. Unfortunately, I'm not an electrical engineer, so that didn't help as much as I thought (although I'll send it over to an EE I'm friends with and see if he can help).

So, should I try redoing the wiring, but only soldering the "A" pins, as well as power, ground (all three on the 3D adapter card) and "D0", but no other pins (including no other "D" pins)?

For the work I've already done, I used a diagram I found online called the "DevSter Master Mega Converter" that people said they'd used in the past to make their own SMS to Genesis converter. Then I used a pinout I found of the Sega Card, matched the pins to the SMS pins and soldered them to the bottom of the Genesis.

(I'm sorry, I have pictures and links to all of this, but since I'm a new member, the board won't let me post links to them)

Anyway, my question is this: The "A" pins were always mismatched by one, but the D pins were equal. For example, "A10" on the Genesis was mapped to "A9" on the SMS and it followed through all of the "A" pins...the Genesis was always one above the SMS. D1 on the Genesis was mapped to D1 on the SMS and so on. Is that correct?
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Post Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:06 pm
That's a detail of the Mega Drive backward compatibility which I don't know about. I'm referring to the card port end. I don't suggest removing the extra connections, I was just suggesting which ones are the most important. A0 and A1 apparently don't matter.
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Post Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:37 pm
Okay, I'll triple check that I soldered all the wires in the right place...especially D0.

Do you think there need to be any resistors or capacitors added? Also, is there a better diagram to use? Following those little black lines gave me a headache.
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Post Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 1:44 pm
I haven't had much time to work on this...been distracted with other projects. Before I dive back in, would someone be able to post pinouts for the Genesis, Master System and Sega Card? I guess maybe a diagram of the Power Base Converter would be best, since it would have all the information in one place.

I'm just worried the documents I used were not correct and that's why I'm having trouble. If I used information that others have already tried, I'd feel a lot better about putting a few more hours into this. Thanks!
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Post Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:18 pm
robneal81 wrote

For the work I've already done, I used a diagram I found online called the "DevSter Master Mega Converter" that people said they'd used in the past to make their own SMS to Genesis converter. Then I used a pinout I found of the Sega Card, matched the pins to the SMS pins and soldered them to the bottom of the Genesis.


The DevSter schematic does work. But, you must take your time and triple check it. It took me half a day of building, mostly because I was being extra careful to make sure it was all wired properly.
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Post Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 6:49 pm
I just went over everything again. First, I re-touched all the solder points on every single wire, just to make sure there wasn't a bad connection. Then, I used a magnifying glass to make sure no two points were touching.

Then, I double checked that I soldered every point correctly, using the DevSter schematic and the Sega Card pinout that I found on this site.

It does the same thing: The glasses turn on, but aren't sync'd. Does anyone have any other suggestions?
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Post Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 12:18 am
Can your genesis actually play the SMS titles?

If you're real bored maybe you can cannibalize an SMS and solder a card connector and test all of that too with a card game.
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Post Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:22 pm
Maraakate wrote
Can your genesis actually play the SMS titles?



Yup, both SMS and Genesis games still work perfect even with this attached.

Maraakate wrote
If you're real bored maybe you can cannibalize an SMS and solder a card connector and test all of that too with a card game.


That's a great idea. Unfortunately, I don't have a spare SMS. This would actually be a great thing to try on a SMS 2, since it doesn't have a card slot anyway.

I'm still hoping I can find out exactly which pins the 3D glasses adapter requires, so I can try using just those pins. Maybe I should clipping all the "D" pins, except "0"? I guess I could also try soldering the "A" pins to match (A10 goes to A10, etc).
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Post Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:25 am
I don't really know what to say on it. But, if you're going to give up maybe you can cannibalize one of the official Sega Powerbase Converters since those had a card slot and find a way to fit all of that in the case.

Though, they are kind of pricey. Average price I saw a few years ago was about $30 USD for an unboxed model.
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Post Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:28 am
Isn't it possible to open the 3D adaptor and check which pins are connected? Or is that too destructive?
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Post Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 12:27 pm
Maxim wrote
Isn't it possible to open the 3D adaptor and check which pins are connected? Or is that too destructive?


Actually, I did open the adapter and I honestly can't tell which are connected. I wish I could post a picture, but I guess I'm still too new to the site and it won't let me. Try this: Go to imgur dot com forward slash "uhr0l".

I can post a better close-up than that, but all of the contacts at the end of the adapter have lines going back to the components...I just can't tell which ones are actually connected to something.
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Post Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 12:43 pm
robneal81 wrote
Actually, I did open the adapter and I honestly can't tell which are connected. I wish I could post a picture, but I guess I'm still too new to the site and it won't let me. Try this: Go to imgur dot com forward slash "uhr0l".

You should be able to post pictures now.
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Post Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 12:59 pm
Thank you. Here are better closeups (links to full-sized versions below each pic):



http://i.imgur.com/zytUZ.jpg




http://i.imgur.com/Px7ok.jpg

Also, I used the following pinout picture to match the pins to the DevStar schematic: http://www.smspower.org/Development/Card
zytUZ.jpg (363.29 KB)
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zytUZ.jpg
Px7ok.jpg (366.08 KB)
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Post Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:40 pm
They may not look like they go anywhere, but find out where those other unsoldered pads go to that may be a clue to your issue.
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Post Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:42 pm
Maraakate wrote
They may not look like they go anywhere, but find out where those other unsoldered pads go to that may be a clue to your issue.


According to the pinout, they are

Mreq

M8-B

CONT

Any idea where I'd solder those to the Genesis? They weren't hooked to anything in the DevStar guide.
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Post Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:42 pm
Side note: new users can't post links or embed images, but attaching images should work and is preferable as we will keep them online forever and imgur etc don't guarantee that.
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Post Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 2:14 pm
I'm going to de-solder everything from the 3D adapter and try it as normal, just to make sure it still works and I didn't damage it. If it doesn't work, I guess I broke it and I'll try to find another one.

If it does work, should I try a different diagram than the DevStar? If so, can anyone recommend one?

Maxim, I've seen another topic on this forum where you talk about customizing the 3D adapter for use in a PC. Can you offer any of your expertise from that project that may help?
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Post Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:32 pm
I de-soldered everything from the 3D adapter and it worked perfect on both my Master System and my Genesis (via Power Base Converter). That means one of two things:

- The pins need to be soldered differently.

- There is some circuitry in either (or both) the Power Base Converter and the original Master System that sits between the Sega Card and the cartridge input. Maybe it's as easy as adding a capacitor, maybe not.

I disassembled the Power Base Converter and there is definitely some circuitry inside. I know some of it is part of the pause button, but I'm wondering if the rest is a clue. Here's a picture I found of the PBC opened that may help:

http://www.the-liberator.net/site-files/retro-games/hardware/SEGA-Mega-Drive-Mas...

Either way, I'm completely stuck without you guys help. This might seem like just a silly project...and while it absolutely is silly, I always thought it would be a really cool thing to have hooked into my Genesis.

Is there any info that anyone can contribute?
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Post Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 9:08 pm
The 3D glasses work by detecting writes to certain addresses, so the hardware should just be monitoring the lines needed for that. However, we don't know exactly which ones it uses - the photos you posted may help there but I haven't tried to figure it out yet. You said it was working at one point, making me suspect there's some minor problem behind the trouble you're having rather than some important missing part.
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Post Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 12:20 am
Maxim wrote
The 3D glasses work by detecting writes to certain addresses, so the hardware should just be monitoring the lines needed for that. However, we don't know exactly which ones it uses - the photos you posted may help there but I haven't tried to figure it out yet. You said it was working at one point, making me suspect there's some minor problem behind the trouble you're having rather than some important missing part.


Well, according to the Development page, we do know what address(es) the 3D glasses use. You find the info here:

http://www.smspower.org/Development/3DGlasses

According to that, the address is $FFF8 through $FFFB (mirrors three times). The card slot doesn't have A15, so you need to use /MReq, /M0-8, and /M8-B to figure out when $Fxxx is addressed.

Someone suggested an interesting idea over at Sega-16 - instead of trying to wire the official 3D interface into a console, make an adapter for the controller port and then patch the 3D games to use that instead. I've looked into this, and it looks quite feasible. You could use TH on the controller port in place of the latched bit at $FFF8. As I understand it, the Japanese SMS doesn't allow changing TH, but it would work on everything else including the MD.

If you can get by with +- 5V for the glasses, and the controller port is CMOS compatible, a single 4030 would handle the glasses. If the port isn't CMOS compatible, or you want +- 12V for really OFF lenses, you would also need an LT1073-12 (5V to 12V converter) and a 4504 level converting buffer. I'd use a variation of this schematic:

http://vrtifacts.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Shutter-Layout-3-1.jpg

from this page:

http://www.vrtifacts.com/build-your-own-shutter-glasses-controller-for-field-int...

Then you patch the roms, changing writes to $FFF8 to writes to TH on the controller port.
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Post Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 12:35 am
Wow, those are all awesome ideas. To be honest, I had to put this project on hold while I'm working on other things. I plan to start working on it again soon though and since my Genesis already has the motherboard wired, I'll probably try your first recommendation, before tackling the controller port one (although that's really intriguing!).

So, based on your first statement, do you suggest I try soldering only:

/MReq
/M0-8
/M8-B
power
ground
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Post Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 4:20 am
robneal81 wrote
Wow, those are all awesome ideas. To be honest, I had to put this project on hold while I'm working on other things. I plan to start working on it again soon though and since my Genesis already has the motherboard wired, I'll probably try your first recommendation, before tackling the controller port one (although that's really intriguing!).


I thought it was intriguing as well. :)

Quote
So, based on your first statement, do you suggest I try soldering only:

/MReq
/M0-7
/M8-B
power
ground


Not "only" those, but those in addition to the others. Clearly, the address decoder on the card needs those three lines in addition to the address lines since those three lines are needed to derive the missing A15 line. You also need /WR and at least A13-A2. A1 to A0 don't matter since the register mirrors over four locations, and A14 isn't needed since /MReq, /M0-7, and /M8-B allow A15 and A14 to be derived. I'd connect A14 any way since the address decoder on the card may use it even though it doesn't NEED to. Clearly, you also need D0 since that's the line that's being written to the latch on the card.
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Post Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 1:27 pm
Interesting. When I spoke to Tiido on the Sega-16 forums, he had a theory. He thought the DevStar pinout was correct, yet mis-labeled. That means since I was first matching the pins from the card to the SMS slot, then following the pins to the Genesis, I was putting some pins in the wrong place. He suggested I use the pinouts from this site to match the card to the regular slot, then use the pin connections from the DevStar pinout to solder the connections to the Genesis. He suggested I solder all the pins to be sure.

That's what I planned on doing next, however I'm still wondering if there's other hardware necessary. When you open the Power Base Converter, there's a bunch of resistors and capacitors and no one seems to know what they're used for. If they're required with the card slot, then even if I soldered everything perfectly, it still won't work.
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Post Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:55 pm
Someone over at Sega-16 pointed out that this web site has a schematic of the 3D card down towards the bottom.



Note that C1 is a resistor - if you look at photos of the 3D card, C1 is indeed a resistor... either the part was changed after the silk screen was done, or they goofed when making the silk screen.
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Post Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:24 am
Believe it or not the pink resistor-looking devices such as C1 really are capacitors. They come up in consumer electronics a lot but I've never seen them for sale. Maybe it was something that was completely obsoleted by surface mount capacitors?

I wonder what the M3/M4 jumper does, which is not shown in the schematic. I guess it must account for some difference between the US and JP cart slots?
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Post Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 2:43 am
Charles MacDonald wrote
Believe it or not the pink resistor-looking devices such as C1 really are capacitors. They come up in consumer electronics a lot but I've never seen them for sale. Maybe it was something that was completely obsoleted by surface mount capacitors?


So is it a cap or a resistor? Maybe someone with the board can check.

Quote
I wonder what the M3/M4 jumper does, which is not shown in the schematic. I guess it must account for some difference between the US and JP cart slots?


Possibly. Or maybe switch the sides for the glasses.
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Post Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:37 pm
Chilly Willy wrote
Charles MacDonald wrote
Believe it or not the pink resistor-looking devices such as C1 really are capacitors. They come up in consumer electronics a lot but I've never seen them for sale. Maybe it was something that was completely obsoleted by surface mount capacitors?


So is it a cap or a resistor? Maybe someone with the board can check.


Like Charles said - it's a capacitor. Colour codes were often used on caps, inductors, diodes, etc. It's not exclusive to resistors.
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Post Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 5:48 pm
Well, a cap makes more sense since those two gates are making an oscillator. I think the voltage multiplier is pretty nifty - they used the "old fashioned" method of caps and diodes. :)
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Post Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:02 pm
A cap would certainly explain why it worked once at then never again. Also, if I ever do get this working, I want to remove one wire at a time, to see for sure what pins are needed. I think there's a good chance all pins are needed, but I'd love to find out for sure.

Unfortunately, I gave away my spare Genesis, so I don't want to try this mod until I get another one: I'd hate to screw up, break it and ruin my Genesis!!! I should have another one by the end of the month though.

Would anyone else like to give this mod a try as well?
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Post Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:56 pm
Hey guys, sorry it's been so long since I posted here, but I've been working on a bunch of other projects. I'm ready to jump back into this now, but I need to get a few things done:

- Correct mapping of SMS 3D adapter pins to the pins on the bottom of the cartridge slot on the Genesis motherboard. Literally, something like "SMS3D Pin 1 --> Genesis pin 3", etc. Maybe a spreadsheet?

- What pins require the capacitors.

- What type of capacitors to buy.

Would anyone here be able to assist? I plan on documenting all of this and putting it into a guide, so other people could benefit too.
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