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Could you make the player run like an emulator?

SmartOne wrote

Could you make the player run like an emulator?

I can't and I won't.
It may be possible, but it would be a lot more trouble than it's worth.

Update of in_vgm? Maybe next week when I do the "real" update of VGMPlay. (I have to apply some changes the MAME Team made.)

Could you get a real sample of real hardware? The Monster World tune sounds different in every emulator. Fusion, Genesis Plus (SDL version) and VGMPlay - all sound different (VGMPlay sounds exactly like MESS).
Even the emulated sample rate affects the sound. (You should set ChipSmplRate = 0, it's set to -1 by default.)

I think I don't fully understand this "emulator vs. player" discussion.

An emulator has to "run" multiple chips simultaneously and often they do this by "running" each chip for a certain amount of time (e.g. 1 line). That means that sound chip writes get merged into blocks (from the sound chip's point of view). An alternative is to "run" the CPU until it writes to another chip, and then "run" the other chip so it can catch up before letting the write "go through". There's also some trickiness to deal with the interaction between chips running at different clock rates and on a shared bus.

A player has it a bit easier as it has a lot less chips to run (just the sound chips), so it'll typically be more on the accurate side, but if aiming for low CPU use it'd merge chip writes into blocks too.

To sound like a real system, the ultra-accurate mode is the way to go. However, VGM files are not ultra-accurate and nor are most emulators. People have previously suggested the possibility of updating VGM to store timings based on some high-frequency base rate (e.g. 3.5MHz for SMS, 7.6MHz for Mega Drive) which would make much bigger files and still be dependent on the accuracy of the emulator. Without that, there's a limit to what you can do.

There's also the possibility to run the chip emulation at its native rate and then resample the output. Some claim this increases the playback accuracy but it imposes a high CPU cost, and the best free sample rate conversion library cannot be legally used in a Winamp plugin :( and it won't solve everything.

Aw, no more Guest posts. :'(

I assumed the player ran at the native rate by default. Now it sounds much better. (Don't you think that should be the default setting?)

SmartOne wrote

I assumed the player ran at the native rate by default. Now it sounds much better. (Don't you think that should be the default setting?)

I thought people would be smart enough to change some options.
Btw: It actually is the default setting, if you remove the entry or the ini-file. I just prefer performance.

Mostly the emulated rate doesn't change that much and emulating at higher sample rates may increase the used CPU by two. (Especially if your vgm has multiple FM chips.)
Also this way the SegaCD PCM chip runs at a higher sample rate than usual.

I guess it's the end of the discussion about accuracy.
You get time until I do the next update and then I won't touch the YM2612 core for a month.

Sorry for being dumb. :(

The native rate does make Flashback and Monster World IV sound more accurate.

Sorry for a stupid question, how would I go about logging a Neo-Geo game, like Neo Turf Masters? I know the game uses the YM2610, but I know nothing about ripping VGM's in MAME and etc.

Or i'd really appreciate if someone ripped Neo Turf Masters.

I changed Volume = 0.5 to avoid clipping in Castlevania: Bloodlines "All Clear."

Sonic CD needs Volume = 0.38.

tripskylark wrote

Neo Turf Masters.

That OST is awesome. I second this request.

Trivia: a section in one of the songs in Neo Turf Master was reused in one of the Metal Slug games. What do golf and war have in common? Beats me.

Tom wrote

tripskylark wrote

Neo Turf Masters.
That OST is awesome. I second this request.

Trivia: a section in one of the songs in Neo Turf Master was reused in one of the Metal Slug games. What do golf and war have in common? Beats me.

Yeah the OST is great, I would rip it myself, but thats why i'm asking how. I'm fairly new to this stuff.

Start here: http://smspower.org/Music/Help

Kaminari wrote

Start here:

I mean I need help logging Neo-Geo VGM's.

Will you please add an option to enable the native chip rate in the Winamp plugin (if not already)?

SmartOne wrote

Will you please add an option to enable the native chip rate in the Winamp plugin (if not already)?

RTFM :P (I mean in_vgm_Updates.txt, line 13)

Just making sure. I think the PSG should be a hair louder for Genesis music...

Will there be a Winamp plugin update soon?

I updated VGMPlay. Changes:
- removed Game Music Emu's YM2612 core (2 different YM2612 cores are enough)
- added options "Chip Sample Mode" and "Pseudo Surround Sound"
- applied all core changes of MAME 0.141u1

Download as usual from the first page. It will take a while until I update in_vgm too, because I want to add a new channel muting dialog in every update.

@SmartOne: The PSG "could" sometimes be a little louder compared to Fusion, but making it louder makes it too loud. I guess Fusion uses a different volume table.

Awesome. Would you consider adding optional interpolation on the RF5C164's channels?

No, not really. You can just emulate it at higher sample rates.
Maybe you can ask some developers of Genesis emulators. They know a lot more about how the cores work internally.

Thank you for the update! Sonic CD still clips with the Winamp plugin. It needs Volume=0.38 in VGMPlay.

There is a scratchiness to the YM2612 sound. It's obvious in Phantasy Star II "Phantasy" throughout. This only happens when the chip is run at its native rate and is resampled. For a quick fix, set the sample rate to 106534 Hz in the INI and keep the native chip rate enabled. Then XMPlay handles the resampling, and the scratchiness is gone.

That (very cheap) resampler is already on my TODO list (Windows' resampler is better, too). Some OPL-instruments also sound quite noisy. I plan a floating-point resampler.

This time I have question: I'm currently implementing the Volume Modifier. I have values in a range of -127 to 127. That's my current formula:
VolumeLevel = 2 ^ (VolModifier / 16)
That makes factors between 0.0039 and 256, which is a little too much. On the other side, dividing by 32 (max. factor 16) creates a range that is a little too small. (I already had vgms that needed a factor of 9)

I want a non-linear algorithm and integer values for factor 2, 4, ... Any suggestions?

SmartOne wrote

Awesome. Would you consider adding optional interpolation on the RF5C164's channels?

ValleyBell wrote

No, not really. You can just emulate it at higher sample rates.
Maybe you can ask some developers of Genesis emulators. They know a lot more about how the cores work internally.

Well, I happen to know for a fact that it can be possible for digital sound channels to be interpolated, as long as they are hardware channels.

Take the DS for instance: Unlike the GBA, which mostly does software mixing for its main two hardware digital channels in mostly all the games in its library, the DS has 16 separate hardware channels that a certain 2SF (DS sound format) plugin happens to interpolate easily!

Now the Sega (Mega) CD soundchip has 8 separate hardware sound channels, normally mixed at 32KHz. Without interpolation. Harmonics galore, an absolute nightmare for the audiophile. Think of the DS as basically two of those soundchips working parallel (Not really, it can also play 16-bit audio, while the SegaCD is stuck at 8-bit.), and you get my opinion of the DS's RL audio quality. :P

Anyway, the SmartOne made a point: As an experiment, could you add linear, cubic and Gaussian to the choices if you do decide to jump in? I've always wondered how SonicCD's Past tunes would sound through a better soundchip! ;)

The VGM format works much differently than 2SF or any of the PSF-family formats. In VGM, all the samples are already prewritten to disk. The reason you can interpolate PSF files is that they are basically emulators running the game ROM with everything else cut out.

VGM can still benefit from resampling because chip emulators generally sound better at their native rate. Samples will sound awful, though - there's aliasing issues with the VGM format and an accurate emulation of the badly-sampled playback will sound badly-sampled.

I did float an idea (around the time Mega Drive sample optimisation was added to the format) about storing the sample playback info as bank/rate/duration rather than specific sample points, allowing high-quality interpolation, but it never got anywhere (because it'd be a lot of work, and it would be inaccurate anyway).

It's not as simple as listing the types of resampling you'd like, though. There's a lack of a truly free resampling library, the only well-respected one (SRC) has a very strict GPL licence which means it can't be used in plugins.

I did some small updates to MAME and MESS.
They're now supporting the SegaCD PCM and PWM. (I don't think that MAME used them, but I updated both.)
The last MESS logged SegaCD PCM (RF5C164) as RF5C68, which works, but results in the PCM being too loud. Logging PWM sound with MESS isn't recommend, because the emulation of the 32x is too inaccurate. (e.g. the drums of Knuckles' Chaotix are sometimes a beat too late)

I also added DOSBox to the list. It still logs DRO files, because a detection of the OPL-type that's used is impossible to do with vgm. VGM logs wouldn't have been more accurate anyway.
What I did is, that I removed a feature that is similar to vgm_cmp. That feature made good trimming almost impossible.

Finally I'm proud to present you a new version of Gens/GS VGM mod.
I spent some hours in the improved logging of the PWM chip. It's now done when registers are written, instead of capturing the FIFO's output.
(I took some time to make the ASM code properly call my C-function. Remember, I still can't really write ASM.)
I consider PWM-logging as finished.

Download links at first post.

Btw: I decided how the Volume Modifier works (very compilcated - see updated vgm spec) and finished the formulas of my resampler.

ValleyBell, what about a zsnes vgm edition? It's possible? It would be nice log with vgm that games which can't be dumped with spc, like The Lost Vikings saga.

See ya

It may be possible, but if you ask me vgm isn't the right format.
I guess you need to emulate some (or at least parts of some) CPUs that don't just calculate a waveform, but execute commands themselves and make callbacks.
VGM actually just records the commands sent. (I think that's just 50% of the SNES' SPC CPU.)
Also ... hmm ... I can't find where the SPC thing actually outputs the sound ...
EDIT: There was a format called snsf for such SNES games, but I think it wasn't very popular.

You have a better chance with the Gameboy sound chip. I once modified MESS to make a vgm-like output for this one. (for a gb2mid conversion I never did)

ValleyBell wrote

EDIT: There was a format called snsf for such SNES games, but I think it wasn't very popular.

The plugin was never very developed, and it was mainly designed to fill in the gaps for games which used tricks of the SPC700 (like streaming, or something like that) which can't be dumped to the spc format.

Hendricks266 wrote

ValleyBell wrote

EDIT: There was a format called snsf for such SNES games, but I think it wasn't very popular.

The plugin was never very developed, and it was mainly designed to fill in the gaps for games which used tricks of the SPC700 (like streaming, or something like that) which can't be dumped to the SPC format.

Well, maybe, if Alpha-II added support to his SNESAmp for the SNSF format, that could be the Holy Grail...(hint hint) ;)

ValleyBell wrote

You have a better chance with the Gameboy sound chip. I once modified MESS to make a vgm-like output for this one. (for a gb2mid conversion I never did)

Sorry for Necro-bumping, But an Idea came to mind!

That reminds me... Since VGMs are converted from code to a loggable format: Maybe adding NES/NSF and GB/GBS formats (via the Recording-Conversion method) to the mix will be a new addition,

Example: Find out how to expand the VGM (v1.70) for NES APU and GB DMG
sound channels and optional respective Famicom expansions

Notes for APU/DMG:
- DMG has 4 channels, Square 1, Square 2, Waveform (4-bit), Noise, may be different than APU
- APU has 5 channels, Square 1, Square 2, Triangle, Noise, DPCM, may be different than DMG
- the 2 MMC5 expansion sounds can be imitated the same as APU Square 1 and 2, but are seperated,
- the 3 AY-8910 Square channels can be kept, useable by Sunsoft 5b/FME-7,
- the Sega Genesis(?) sound core, can be used for Konami VRC-7, but make sure limits are the same!

Other NSF expansion channels are optional, but not listed as of yet!

This use to be the case with the ''Old Universal Chip Sound Format'' (or .SND) because Martin Konrad used to use that format for iNES/GB v0.7, which does not exist anymore

I'll have a look. I still have to write some tools for vgm v1.60, but I'll try GB support sooner or later. (There's a Speedy Gonzales game I want to log.)
I'm unsure about NES (and especially its extentions), but I'll try it some day.

I don't find how can I rip vgm with your DOSBox. In Mame is quite easy, just open the emulator and the log started. But nothing was logged when I use DOSBox, what I must do? Thanks

See ya

ValleyBell wrote

I'll have a look. I still have to write some tools for vgm v1.60, but I'll try GB support sooner or later. (There's a Speedy Gonzales game I want to log.)
I'm unsure about NES (and especially its extentions), but I'll try it some day.

Then at least sign up to http://nesdev.parodius.com/bbs and talk about the format possibilities in the ''General Stuff'' forums,

NES Audio is not that hard compared to GB, there is very good documentation from Blarrg of Game_Music_Emu fame, And is availible at the NESDEV Wiki,

For now, Good Luck with the VGM format,

For DOSBox vgm logs you need: my DOSBox patch and dro2vgm (you don't want to trim dros made with the offical DOSBox)

You start logging by pressing Ctrl+Alt+F7. It should display "Capturing Raw Opl to ..." in console window.
Now play the song(s).
Then stop logging by pressing Ctrl+Alt+F7 again. The console should show "Stopped Raw OPL capturing."
Now drop the logged dro-file on dro2vgm.exe and trim your vgm with vgm_trim. (VGMTool won't work).

I know I could've made DOSBox log vgms, but only dros support an OPL-type detection.

ValleyBell wrote

For DOSBox vgm logs you need: my DOSBox patch and dro2vgm (you don't want to trim dros made with the offical DOSBox)

You start logging by pressing Ctrl+Alt+F7. It should display "Capturing Raw Opl to ..." in console window.
Now play the song(s).
Then stop logging by pressing Ctrl+Alt+F7 again. The console should show "Stopped Raw OPL capturing."
Now drop the logged dro-file on dro2vgm.exe and trim your vgm with vgm_trim. (VGMTool won't work).

I know I could've made DOSBox log vgms, but only dros support an OPL-type detection.

Thank you very much.

See ya

Sorry for double posting, but Jazz Jackrabbit don't log dros :(. Is there any alternative? Thanks

See ya

Why do you want to log Jazz Jackrabbit's music in dro/vgm format? The game is freeware afaik, its songs are freely available in PSM (Protracker Studio Module) format which can easily be converted to standard MODules by several converters (and I believe you can already get the converted MOD files themselves somewhere, though I'm not sure where).
Once you have the songs in their native format I think you don't need a derived format, as the original MODules are as good as they can get.

Unless I completely missed the point.

Tom wrote

Why do you want to log Jazz Jackrabbit's music in dro/vgm format? The game is freeware afaik, its songs are freely available in PSM (Protracker Studio Module) format which can easily be converted to standard MODules by several converters (and I believe you can already get the converted MOD files themselves somewhere, though I'm not sure where).
Once you have the songs in their native format I think you don't need a derived format, as the original MODules are as good as they can get.

Unless I completely missed the point.

I don't know that! It's good to know, thank you.

See ya

DROs and VGMs are only made for the FM (OPL2/3) sounds of DOS games, but they can also use other ways like MIDI or WAVE. (Playing MOD files is like playing WAVE files.)
There's also the PC speaker, but it isn't logged to anything but waves.

I tried MAME and FOX m1 to rip this game (Neo-Geo - YM2610), but it is not supported :(.

mills wrote

I tried MAME and FOX m1 to rip this game (Neo-Geo - YM2610), but it is not supported :(.

Yeah is there anyway to successfully rip Neo Turf Masters? Can anyone do it? I've been trying for weeks with no avail.

I tried MAME and M1 and it works well for me (I'm getting a 16 MB file for each song).

The ROM was called "turfmast.zip".
My M1 VGM is a little newer than the uploaded one, so I'll update it. (Commandline: "m1 -g turfmast")
MAME VGM is from 9th Februrary 2011, but older version should also work.

Please try again. If it still doesn't work, I'll rip it.

It's difficult to find the right named rom :). If the songs are 16 MB, they could be streamed (adpcm). But I listened some of them (youtube) I think they are sequenced (I hope).

ValleyBell wrote

I tried MAME and M1 and it works well for me (I'm getting a 16 MB file for each song).

The ROM was called "turfmast.zip".
My M1 VGM is a little newer than the uploaded one, so I'll update it. (Commandline: "m1 -g turfmast")
MAME VGM is from 9th Februrary 2011, but older version should also work.

Please try again. If it still doesn't work, I'll rip it.

Yeah still isn't working for mine for some reason. Doing everything right.

Do you mind ripping it?

I'll do if no one does it. I'm quite busy this week, so I can start ripping next week.

ValleyBell wrote

I'll do if no one does it. I'm quite busy this week, so I can start ripping next week.

Yes that would be very appreciated. It isn't working for anyone for some reason, I hope to get this resolved as I would love to rip Neo Geo soundtracks.

Does MAME log other games or doesn't it log anything?
In the latter case make sure that you set "vgmwrite" to 1 in mame.ini.

If it still doesn't work search for "DEBUGGING OPTIONS" in mame.ini, set "log" to 1 and look what MAME writes into error.log.

ValleyBell wrote

Does MAME log other games or doesn't it log anything?
In the latter case make sure that you set "vgmwrite" to 1 in mame.ini.

If it still doesn't work search for "DEBUGGING OPTIONS" in mame.ini, set "log" to 1 and look what MAME writes into error.log.

Yeah I can log anything else just fine, its just Neo Turf Masters thats the problem.

This song is the only .vgm I want; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNJMCZvzM2E, I would be grateful if you just post that .vgm, since I've been wanting to do a cover of that song for ages.

I ripped the songs! They are much like Metal slug ones,(a sample tracker format with digital samples-intruments and sequence), just 5 big songs, the rest are small intros.

Many NeoGeo tunes sound very loud using in_vgm, it happens with metal slug, neo turf masters, and blues journey (i'm ripping it).
I think it has something to do with the digital instruments they use, because vgm's using many synth sounds (not digital pcm samples), play ok using in_vgm.

I upload the tune tripskylark wanted, it's 1,5 MB optimized, it sounds very badly (loud) using in_vgm.

ups.. I think I missed some part of the songs.. I'll have to rip them again.

turfmast_23.rar (940.1 KB)

mills wrote

I ripped the songs! They are much like Metal slug ones,(a sample tracker format with digital samples-intruments and sequence), just 5 big songs, the rest are small intros.

Many NeoGeo tunes sound very loud using in_vgm, it happens with metal slug, neo turf masters, and blues journey (i'm ripping it).
I think it has something to do with the digital instruments they use, because vgm's using many synth sounds (not digital pcm samples), play ok using in_vgm.

I upload the tune tripskylark wanted, it's 1,5 MB optimized, it sounds very badly (loud) using in_vgm.

ups.. I think I missed some part of the songs.. I'll have to rip them again.

Thank you very much! Yeah its only audible in VGMPlay, and I think the .vgm is missing an instrument, oh well I'll wait for the full rip. Hopefully there will be a fix for Neo Geo logged songs for in_vgm.

interesting read! it would be cool to have the neo geo soundtracks ripped! =)
are the new rips archived somewhere?
i suggest uploading them to ftp.modland.com!

Author	Message
SmartOne Guest	Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:52 pm
SmartOne Guest	Could you make the player run like an emulator?

ValleyBell Joined: 15 Sep 2009 Posts: 377	Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:18 am
ValleyBell Joined: 15 Sep 2009 Posts: 377	SmartOne wrote Could you make the player run like an emulator? I can't and I won't. It may be possible, but it would be a lot more trouble than it's worth. Update of in_vgm? Maybe next week when I do the "real" update of VGMPlay. (I have to apply some changes the MAME Team made.) Could you get a real sample of real hardware? The Monster World tune sounds different in every emulator. Fusion, Genesis Plus (SDL version) and VGMPlay - all sound different (VGMPlay sounds exactly like MESS). Even the emulated sample rate affects the sound. (You should set ChipSmplRate = 0, it's set to -1 by default.)

Maxim Site Admin Joined: 19 Oct 1999 Posts: 14732 Location: London	Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:10 am
	I think I don't fully understand this "emulator vs. player" discussion. An emulator has to "run" multiple chips simultaneously and often they do this by "running" each chip for a certain amount of time (e.g. 1 line). That means that sound chip writes get merged into blocks (from the sound chip's point of view). An alternative is to "run" the CPU until it writes to another chip, and then "run" the other chip so it can catch up before letting the write "go through". There's also some trickiness to deal with the interaction between chips running at different clock rates and on a shared bus. A player has it a bit easier as it has a lot less chips to run (just the sound chips), so it'll typically be more on the accurate side, but if aiming for low CPU use it'd merge chip writes into blocks too. To sound like a real system, the ultra-accurate mode is the way to go. However, VGM files are not ultra-accurate and nor are most emulators. People have previously suggested the possibility of updating VGM to store timings based on some high-frequency base rate (e.g. 3.5MHz for SMS, 7.6MHz for Mega Drive) which would make much bigger files and still be dependent on the accuracy of the emulator. Without that, there's a limit to what you can do. There's also the possibility to run the chip emulation at its native rate and then resample the output. Some claim this increases the playback accuracy but it imposes a high CPU cost, and the best free sample rate conversion library cannot be legally used in a Winamp plugin :( and it won't solve everything.

SmartOne Joined: 11 Jan 2011 Posts: 7	Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:09 pm
SmartOne Joined: 11 Jan 2011 Posts: 7	Aw, no more Guest posts. :'( I assumed the player ran at the native rate by default. Now it sounds much better. (Don't you think that should be the default setting?)

ValleyBell Joined: 15 Sep 2009 Posts: 377	Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:38 pm
ValleyBell Joined: 15 Sep 2009 Posts: 377	SmartOne wrote I assumed the player ran at the native rate by default. Now it sounds much better. (Don't you think that should be the default setting?) I thought people would be smart enough to change some options. Btw: It actually is the default setting, if you remove the entry or the ini-file. I just prefer performance. Mostly the emulated rate doesn't change that much and emulating at higher sample rates may increase the used CPU by two. (Especially if your vgm has multiple FM chips.) Also this way the SegaCD PCM chip runs at a higher sample rate than usual. I guess it's the end of the discussion about accuracy. You get time until I do the next update and then I won't touch the YM2612 core for a month.

SmartOne Joined: 11 Jan 2011 Posts: 7	Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:28 pm
SmartOne Joined: 11 Jan 2011 Posts: 7	Sorry for being dumb. :( The native rate does make Flashback and Monster World IV sound more accurate.

tripskylark Joined: 15 Jan 2011 Posts: 10	Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:10 am
tripskylark Joined: 15 Jan 2011 Posts: 10	Sorry for a stupid question, how would I go about logging a Neo-Geo game, like Neo Turf Masters? I know the game uses the YM2610, but I know nothing about ripping VGM's in MAME and etc. Or i'd really appreciate if someone ripped Neo Turf Masters.

SmartOne Joined: 11 Jan 2011 Posts: 7	Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:54 pm
SmartOne Joined: 11 Jan 2011 Posts: 7	I changed Volume = 0.5 to avoid clipping in Castlevania: Bloodlines "All Clear." Sonic CD needs Volume = 0.38.

Tom Joined: 16 May 2002 Posts: 1356 Location: italy	Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:47 pm
Tom Joined: 16 May 2002 Posts: 1356 Location: italy	tripskylark wrote Neo Turf Masters. That OST is awesome. I second this request. Trivia: a section in one of the songs in Neo Turf Master was reused in one of the Metal Slug games. What do golf and war have in common? Beats me.

tripskylark Joined: 15 Jan 2011 Posts: 10	Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 2:45 pm
tripskylark Joined: 15 Jan 2011 Posts: 10	Tom wrote tripskylark wrote Neo Turf Masters. That OST is awesome. I second this request. Trivia: a section in one of the songs in Neo Turf Master was reused in one of the Metal Slug games. What do golf and war have in common? Beats me. Yeah the OST is great, I would rip it myself, but thats why i'm asking how. I'm fairly new to this stuff.

Kaminari Joined: 25 Jun 2005 Posts: 50 Location: Paris, France	Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 3:26 pm
	Start here: http://smspower.org/Music/Help

tripskylark Joined: 15 Jan 2011 Posts: 10	Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 3:45 pm
tripskylark Joined: 15 Jan 2011 Posts: 10	Kaminari wrote Start here: I mean I need help logging Neo-Geo VGM's.

SmartOne Joined: 11 Jan 2011 Posts: 7	Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 2:15 am
SmartOne Joined: 11 Jan 2011 Posts: 7	Will you please add an option to enable the native chip rate in the Winamp plugin (if not already)?

ValleyBell Joined: 15 Sep 2009 Posts: 377	Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:09 pm
ValleyBell Joined: 15 Sep 2009 Posts: 377	SmartOne wrote Will you please add an option to enable the native chip rate in the Winamp plugin (if not already)? RTFM :P (I mean in_vgm_Updates.txt, line 13)

SmartOne Joined: 11 Jan 2011 Posts: 7	Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 4:01 pm
SmartOne Joined: 11 Jan 2011 Posts: 7	Just making sure. I think the PSG should be a hair louder for Genesis music... Will there be a Winamp plugin update soon?

ValleyBell Joined: 15 Sep 2009 Posts: 377	Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 7:05 am
ValleyBell Joined: 15 Sep 2009 Posts: 377	I updated VGMPlay. Changes: - removed Game Music Emu's YM2612 core (2 different YM2612 cores are enough) - added options "Chip Sample Mode" and "Pseudo Surround Sound" - applied all core changes of MAME 0.141u1 Download as usual from the first page. It will take a while until I update in_vgm too, because I want to add a new channel muting dialog in every update. @SmartOne: The PSG "could" sometimes be a little louder compared to Fusion, but making it louder makes it too loud. I guess Fusion uses a different volume table.

SmartOne Joined: 11 Jan 2011 Posts: 7	Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:45 pm
SmartOne Joined: 11 Jan 2011 Posts: 7	Awesome. Would you consider adding optional interpolation on the RF5C164's channels?

ValleyBell Joined: 15 Sep 2009 Posts: 377	Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:20 pm
ValleyBell Joined: 15 Sep 2009 Posts: 377	No, not really. You can just emulate it at higher sample rates. Maybe you can ask some developers of Genesis emulators. They know a lot more about how the cores work internally.

SmartOne Joined: 11 Jan 2011 Posts: 7	Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:41 am Last edited by SmartOne on Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
SmartOne Joined: 11 Jan 2011 Posts: 7	Thank you for the update! Sonic CD still clips with the Winamp plugin. It needs Volume=0.38 in VGMPlay. There is a scratchiness to the YM2612 sound. It's obvious in Phantasy Star II "Phantasy" throughout. This only happens when the chip is run at its native rate and is resampled. For a quick fix, set the sample rate to 106534 Hz in the INI and keep the native chip rate enabled. Then XMPlay handles the resampling, and the scratchiness is gone.

ValleyBell Joined: 15 Sep 2009 Posts: 377	Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:17 pm
ValleyBell Joined: 15 Sep 2009 Posts: 377	That (very cheap) resampler is already on my TODO list (Windows' resampler is better, too). Some OPL-instruments also sound quite noisy. I plan a floating-point resampler. This time I have question: I'm currently implementing the Volume Modifier. I have values in a range of -127 to 127. That's my current formula: VolumeLevel = 2 ^ (VolModifier / 16) That makes factors between 0.0039 and 256, which is a little too much. On the other side, dividing by 32 (max. factor 16) creates a range that is a little too small. (I already had vgms that needed a factor of 9) I want a non-linear algorithm and integer values for factor 2, 4, ... Any suggestions?

JFD62780 Joined: 27 Jan 2009 Posts: 13 Location: Tampa, FL, USA	Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:26 am
	SmartOne wrote Awesome. Would you consider adding optional interpolation on the RF5C164's channels? ValleyBell wrote No, not really. You can just emulate it at higher sample rates. Maybe you can ask some developers of Genesis emulators. They know a lot more about how the cores work internally. Well, I happen to know for a fact that it can be possible for digital sound channels to be interpolated, as long as they are hardware channels. Take the DS for instance: Unlike the GBA, which mostly does software mixing for its main two hardware digital channels in mostly all the games in its library, the DS has 16 separate hardware channels that a certain 2SF (DS sound format) plugin happens to interpolate easily! Now the Sega (Mega) CD soundchip has 8 separate hardware sound channels, normally mixed at 32KHz. Without interpolation. Harmonics galore, an absolute nightmare for the audiophile. Think of the DS as basically two of those soundchips working parallel (Not really, it can also play 16-bit audio, while the SegaCD is stuck at 8-bit.), and you get my opinion of the DS's RL audio quality. :P Anyway, the SmartOne made a point: As an experiment, could you add linear, cubic and Gaussian to the choices if you do decide to jump in? I've always wondered how SonicCD's Past tunes would sound through a better soundchip! ;)

Hendricks266 Joined: 10 Jul 2009 Posts: 20 Location: United States	Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 7:11 pm
	The VGM format works much differently than 2SF or any of the PSF-family formats. In VGM, all the samples are already prewritten to disk. The reason you can interpolate PSF files is that they are basically emulators running the game ROM with everything else cut out.

Maxim Site Admin Joined: 19 Oct 1999 Posts: 14732 Location: London	Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 8:46 am
	VGM can still benefit from resampling because chip emulators generally sound better at their native rate. Samples will sound awful, though - there's aliasing issues with the VGM format and an accurate emulation of the badly-sampled playback will sound badly-sampled. I did float an idea (around the time Mega Drive sample optimisation was added to the format) about storing the sample playback info as bank/rate/duration rather than specific sample points, allowing high-quality interpolation, but it never got anywhere (because it'd be a lot of work, and it would be inaccurate anyway). It's not as simple as listing the types of resampling you'd like, though. There's a lack of a truly free resampling library, the only well-respected one (SRC) has a very strict GPL licence which means it can't be used in plugins.

ValleyBell Joined: 15 Sep 2009 Posts: 377	Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2011 12:48 pm
ValleyBell Joined: 15 Sep 2009 Posts: 377	I did some small updates to MAME and MESS. They're now supporting the SegaCD PCM and PWM. (I don't think that MAME used them, but I updated both.) The last MESS logged SegaCD PCM (RF5C164) as RF5C68, which works, but results in the PCM being too loud. Logging PWM sound with MESS isn't recommend, because the emulation of the 32x is too inaccurate. (e.g. the drums of Knuckles' Chaotix are sometimes a beat too late) I also added DOSBox to the list. It still logs DRO files, because a detection of the OPL-type that's used is impossible to do with vgm. VGM logs wouldn't have been more accurate anyway. What I did is, that I removed a feature that is similar to vgm_cmp. That feature made good trimming almost impossible. Finally I'm proud to present you a new version of Gens/GS VGM mod. I spent some hours in the improved logging of the PWM chip. It's now done when registers are written, instead of capturing the FIFO's output. (I took some time to make the ASM code properly call my C-function. Remember, I still can't really write ASM.) I consider PWM-logging as finished. Download links at first post. Btw: I decided how the Volume Modifier works (very compilcated - see updated vgm spec) and finished the formulas of my resampler.

Koto Joined: 03 Oct 2010 Posts: 11	Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 1:22 am
Koto Joined: 03 Oct 2010 Posts: 11	ValleyBell, what about a zsnes vgm edition? It's possible? It would be nice log with vgm that games which can't be dumped with spc, like The Lost Vikings saga. See ya

ValleyBell Joined: 15 Sep 2009 Posts: 377	Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 2:48 pm
ValleyBell Joined: 15 Sep 2009 Posts: 377	It may be possible, but if you ask me vgm isn't the right format. I guess you need to emulate some (or at least parts of some) CPUs that don't just calculate a waveform, but execute commands themselves and make callbacks. VGM actually just records the commands sent. (I think that's just 50% of the SNES' SPC CPU.) Also ... hmm ... I can't find where the SPC thing actually outputs the sound ... EDIT: There was a format called snsf for such SNES games, but I think it wasn't very popular. You have a better chance with the Gameboy sound chip. I once modified MESS to make a vgm-like output for this one. (for a gb2mid conversion I never did)

Hendricks266 Joined: 10 Jul 2009 Posts: 20 Location: United States	Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 7:08 am
	ValleyBell wrote EDIT: There was a format called snsf for such SNES games, but I think it wasn't very popular. The plugin was never very developed, and it was mainly designed to fill in the gaps for games which used tricks of the SPC700 (like streaming, or something like that) which can't be dumped to the spc format.

JFD62780 Joined: 27 Jan 2009 Posts: 13 Location: Tampa, FL, USA	Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 3:43 am
	Hendricks266 wrote ValleyBell wrote EDIT: There was a format called snsf for such SNES games, but I think it wasn't very popular. The plugin was never very developed, and it was mainly designed to fill in the gaps for games which used tricks of the SPC700 (like streaming, or something like that) which can't be dumped to the SPC format. Well, maybe, if Alpha-II added support to his SNESAmp for the SNSF format, that could be the Holy Grail...(hint hint) ;)

hamtaro126 Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 35	Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:27 pm
hamtaro126 Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 35	ValleyBell wrote You have a better chance with the Gameboy sound chip. I once modified MESS to make a vgm-like output for this one. (for a gb2mid conversion I never did) Sorry for Necro-bumping, But an Idea came to mind! That reminds me... Since VGMs are converted from code to a loggable format: Maybe adding NES/NSF and GB/GBS formats (via the Recording-Conversion method) to the mix will be a new addition, Example: Find out how to expand the VGM (v1.70) for NES APU and GB DMG sound channels and optional respective Famicom expansions Notes for APU/DMG: - DMG has 4 channels, Square 1, Square 2, Waveform (4-bit), Noise, may be different than APU - APU has 5 channels, Square 1, Square 2, Triangle, Noise, DPCM, may be different than DMG - the 2 MMC5 expansion sounds can be imitated the same as APU Square 1 and 2, but are seperated, - the 3 AY-8910 Square channels can be kept, useable by Sunsoft 5b/FME-7, - the Sega Genesis(?) sound core, can be used for Konami VRC-7, but make sure limits are the same! Other NSF expansion channels are optional, but not listed as of yet! This use to be the case with the ''Old Universal Chip Sound Format'' (or .SND) because Martin Konrad used to use that format for iNES/GB v0.7, which does not exist anymore

ValleyBell Joined: 15 Sep 2009 Posts: 377	Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 12:10 pm
ValleyBell Joined: 15 Sep 2009 Posts: 377	I'll have a look. I still have to write some tools for vgm v1.60, but I'll try GB support sooner or later. (There's a Speedy Gonzales game I want to log.) I'm unsure about NES (and especially its extentions), but I'll try it some day.

Koto Joined: 03 Oct 2010 Posts: 11	Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 3:05 pm
Koto Joined: 03 Oct 2010 Posts: 11	I don't find how can I rip vgm with your DOSBox. In Mame is quite easy, just open the emulator and the log started. But nothing was logged when I use DOSBox, what I must do? Thanks See ya

hamtaro126 Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 35	Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 9:40 pm
hamtaro126 Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 35	ValleyBell wrote I'll have a look. I still have to write some tools for vgm v1.60, but I'll try GB support sooner or later. (There's a Speedy Gonzales game I want to log.) I'm unsure about NES (and especially its extentions), but I'll try it some day. Then at least sign up to http://nesdev.parodius.com/bbs and talk about the format possibilities in the ''General Stuff'' forums, NES Audio is not that hard compared to GB, there is very good documentation from Blarrg of Game_Music_Emu fame, And is availible at the NESDEV Wiki, For now, Good Luck with the VGM format,

ValleyBell Joined: 15 Sep 2009 Posts: 377	Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:50 pm
ValleyBell Joined: 15 Sep 2009 Posts: 377	For DOSBox vgm logs you need: my DOSBox patch and dro2vgm (you don't want to trim dros made with the offical DOSBox) You start logging by pressing Ctrl+Alt+F7. It should display "Capturing Raw Opl to ..." in console window. Now play the song(s). Then stop logging by pressing Ctrl+Alt+F7 again. The console should show "Stopped Raw OPL capturing." Now drop the logged dro-file on dro2vgm.exe and trim your vgm with vgm_trim. (VGMTool won't work). I know I could've made DOSBox log vgms, but only dros support an OPL-type detection.

Koto Joined: 03 Oct 2010 Posts: 11	Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:52 pm
Koto Joined: 03 Oct 2010 Posts: 11	ValleyBell wrote For DOSBox vgm logs you need: my DOSBox patch and dro2vgm (you don't want to trim dros made with the offical DOSBox) You start logging by pressing Ctrl+Alt+F7. It should display "Capturing Raw Opl to ..." in console window. Now play the song(s). Then stop logging by pressing Ctrl+Alt+F7 again. The console should show "Stopped Raw OPL capturing." Now drop the logged dro-file on dro2vgm.exe and trim your vgm with vgm_trim. (VGMTool won't work). I know I could've made DOSBox log vgms, but only dros support an OPL-type detection. Thank you very much. See ya

Koto Joined: 03 Oct 2010 Posts: 11	Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 2:50 pm
Koto Joined: 03 Oct 2010 Posts: 11	Sorry for double posting, but Jazz Jackrabbit don't log dros :(. Is there any alternative? Thanks See ya

Tom Joined: 16 May 2002 Posts: 1356 Location: italy	Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 6:42 pm
Tom Joined: 16 May 2002 Posts: 1356 Location: italy	Why do you want to log Jazz Jackrabbit's music in dro/vgm format? The game is freeware afaik, its songs are freely available in PSM (Protracker Studio Module) format which can easily be converted to standard MODules by several converters (and I believe you can already get the converted MOD files themselves somewhere, though I'm not sure where). Once you have the songs in their native format I think you don't need a derived format, as the original MODules are as good as they can get. Unless I completely missed the point.

Koto Joined: 03 Oct 2010 Posts: 11	Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:23 am
Koto Joined: 03 Oct 2010 Posts: 11	Tom wrote Why do you want to log Jazz Jackrabbit's music in dro/vgm format? The game is freeware afaik, its songs are freely available in PSM (Protracker Studio Module) format which can easily be converted to standard MODules by several converters (and I believe you can already get the converted MOD files themselves somewhere, though I'm not sure where). Once you have the songs in their native format I think you don't need a derived format, as the original MODules are as good as they can get. Unless I completely missed the point. I don't know that! It's good to know, thank you. See ya

ValleyBell Joined: 15 Sep 2009 Posts: 377	Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:39 pm
ValleyBell Joined: 15 Sep 2009 Posts: 377	DROs and VGMs are only made for the FM (OPL2/3) sounds of DOS games, but they can also use other ways like MIDI or WAVE. (Playing MOD files is like playing WAVE files.) There's also the PC speaker, but it isn't logged to anything but waves.

mills Joined: 04 Aug 2010 Posts: 38	Neo Turf Masters Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 1:00 pm
mills Joined: 04 Aug 2010 Posts: 38	I tried MAME and FOX m1 to rip this game (Neo-Geo - YM2610), but it is not supported :(.

tripskylark Joined: 15 Jan 2011 Posts: 10	Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:02 am
tripskylark Joined: 15 Jan 2011 Posts: 10	mills wrote I tried MAME and FOX m1 to rip this game (Neo-Geo - YM2610), but it is not supported :(. Yeah is there anyway to successfully rip Neo Turf Masters? Can anyone do it? I've been trying for weeks with no avail.

ValleyBell Joined: 15 Sep 2009 Posts: 377	Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:32 am
ValleyBell Joined: 15 Sep 2009 Posts: 377	I tried MAME and M1 and it works well for me (I'm getting a 16 MB file for each song). The ROM was called "turfmast.zip". My M1 VGM is a little newer than the uploaded one, so I'll update it. (Commandline: "m1 -g turfmast") MAME VGM is from 9th Februrary 2011, but older version should also work. Please try again. If it still doesn't work, I'll rip it.

mills Joined: 04 Aug 2010 Posts: 38	Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:00 pm
mills Joined: 04 Aug 2010 Posts: 38	It's difficult to find the right named rom :). If the songs are 16 MB, they could be streamed (adpcm). But I listened some of them (youtube) I think they are sequenced (I hope).

tripskylark Joined: 15 Jan 2011 Posts: 10	Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 2:46 am
tripskylark Joined: 15 Jan 2011 Posts: 10	ValleyBell wrote I tried MAME and M1 and it works well for me (I'm getting a 16 MB file for each song). The ROM was called "turfmast.zip". My M1 VGM is a little newer than the uploaded one, so I'll update it. (Commandline: "m1 -g turfmast") MAME VGM is from 9th Februrary 2011, but older version should also work. Please try again. If it still doesn't work, I'll rip it. Yeah still isn't working for mine for some reason. Doing everything right. Do you mind ripping it?

ValleyBell Joined: 15 Sep 2009 Posts: 377	Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:43 pm
ValleyBell Joined: 15 Sep 2009 Posts: 377	I'll do if no one does it. I'm quite busy this week, so I can start ripping next week.

tripskylark Joined: 15 Jan 2011 Posts: 10	Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:47 pm
tripskylark Joined: 15 Jan 2011 Posts: 10	ValleyBell wrote I'll do if no one does it. I'm quite busy this week, so I can start ripping next week. Yes that would be very appreciated. It isn't working for anyone for some reason, I hope to get this resolved as I would love to rip Neo Geo soundtracks.

ValleyBell Joined: 15 Sep 2009 Posts: 377	Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:48 am
ValleyBell Joined: 15 Sep 2009 Posts: 377	Does MAME log other games or doesn't it log anything? In the latter case make sure that you set "vgmwrite" to 1 in mame.ini. If it still doesn't work search for "DEBUGGING OPTIONS" in mame.ini, set "log" to 1 and look what MAME writes into error.log.

tripskylark Joined: 15 Jan 2011 Posts: 10	Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:52 am
tripskylark Joined: 15 Jan 2011 Posts: 10	ValleyBell wrote Does MAME log other games or doesn't it log anything? In the latter case make sure that you set "vgmwrite" to 1 in mame.ini. If it still doesn't work search for "DEBUGGING OPTIONS" in mame.ini, set "log" to 1 and look what MAME writes into error.log. Yeah I can log anything else just fine, its just Neo Turf Masters thats the problem. This song is the only .vgm I want; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNJMCZvzM2E, I would be grateful if you just post that .vgm, since I've been wanting to do a cover of that song for ages.

mills Joined: 04 Aug 2010 Posts: 38	Neo turf masters Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 8:49 pm
mills Joined: 04 Aug 2010 Posts: 38	I ripped the songs! They are much like Metal slug ones,(a sample tracker format with digital samples-intruments and sequence), just 5 big songs, the rest are small intros. Many NeoGeo tunes sound very loud using in_vgm, it happens with metal slug, neo turf masters, and blues journey (i'm ripping it). I think it has something to do with the digital instruments they use, because vgm's using many synth sounds (not digital pcm samples), play ok using in_vgm. I upload the tune tripskylark wanted, it's 1,5 MB optimized, it sounds very badly (loud) using in_vgm. ups.. I think I missed some part of the songs.. I'll have to rip them again. turfmast_23.rar (940.1 KB)

tripskylark Joined: 15 Jan 2011 Posts: 10	Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 1:32 am
tripskylark Joined: 15 Jan 2011 Posts: 10	mills wrote I ripped the songs! They are much like Metal slug ones,(a sample tracker format with digital samples-intruments and sequence), just 5 big songs, the rest are small intros. Many NeoGeo tunes sound very loud using in_vgm, it happens with metal slug, neo turf masters, and blues journey (i'm ripping it). I think it has something to do with the digital instruments they use, because vgm's using many synth sounds (not digital pcm samples), play ok using in_vgm. I upload the tune tripskylark wanted, it's 1,5 MB optimized, it sounds very badly (loud) using in_vgm. ups.. I think I missed some part of the songs.. I'll have to rip them again. Thank you very much! Yeah its only audible in VGMPlay, and I think the .vgm is missing an instrument, oh well I'll wait for the full rip. Hopefully there will be a fix for Neo Geo logged songs for in_vgm.

spotUP Joined: 08 Sep 2010 Posts: 8	Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:05 pm
spotUP Joined: 08 Sep 2010 Posts: 8	interesting read! it would be cool to have the neo geo soundtracks ripped! =) are the new rips archived somewhere? i suggest uploading them to ftp.modland.com!

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